[nolidad]

Can we please stop all of this "liberal vs. conservative" idiocy? Can we be done with the partisan hackery? Seriously, folks. Everyone needs to stop complaining about the other party (who is in power) and how they were so 'unfair' and full of complaints about the original party (when they were in power), and how they expected everyone to be nice to their party, but turn around and complain about the current party in power....

I use those terms for they are the defining terms in politics today. Democrat and Republican are no longer vewry valid. This country is being split down the middle. Those who wish to see the country move more toward a Euro-socialist style of government and those who want to return to a more constitutional style of minimalist federal govt. Though I am dead opposed to it- I think and believe we are seeing a massive paradigm shift towards socialism.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I use those terms for they are the defining terms in politics today. Democrat and Republican are no longer vewry valid. This country is being split down the middle. Those who wish to see the country move more toward a Euro-socialist style of government and those who want to return to a more constitutional style of minimalist federal govt.

Where are these groups, particularly the latter. I don't see it. Have any of them gotten elected to anything?

Though I am dead opposed to it- I think and believe we are seeing a massive paradigm shift towards socialism.

I keep hearing that word but can only find a single example of it (the bail-out portions which have stock ownership).

What means of production is the government taking possession of that it hasn't in the past?

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Mullet

Did I ever mention the term "incompetent?" I don't believe I did. I accused them of being "mediocre," and "average." And I stand by that. What we have is a giant popularity contest, mixed with excessive bureaucracy. It prevents the complete idiots from having a chance, as well as the truly brilliant. Both ends of the spectrum are omitted, and we end up with the "mediocre."

I don't know how the truly brilliant don't have a chance. High ranking politicians aren't popular for the sake of being popular in a celebrity fashion very often. They are usually very popular because they are very good at what they do. Your average U.S. Senator is not your average person, at least in the qualities that make for good politics. And the scrutiny we put on the personal lives of the people we elect to office? My goodness, I don't think I could stand up to that when I hit 40-45.

Right. And the greater American public has a pretty poor political knowledge base, in my experience. I make no exception for myself. But again, when you have the uneducated electing the most popular, you end up with mediocrity. Mr. George Washington had no party... and you can see throughout history that candidates without major party support used to have much better chances.... up until the Civil War.

One of the very first things that happened after Washington left office was the formation of political parties; the Federalists and the Democratic-Republicans. Major party support has been a part of every presidential election. Communication to the average citizen is one of the things a candidate has to do. I think you're underestimating the education of the American public; the basis of our government is that the people can lead themselves, and the various linking institutions between the people and their government actually do a pretty good job of keeping the public informed. The majority of Americans with little political interest don't vote.

Perhaps. I don't think the cynicism and distrust is unwarranted, however. They've earned it.

Go to some countries with truly horrendous systems of government, and see how much you like ours then. My parents came over to the U.S.A. during the Vietnam War. They're definitely some of the most patriotic people I know.

[mulletman]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I use those terms for they are the defining terms in politics today. Democrat and Republican are no longer vewry valid. This country is being split down the middle.

I definitely agree with this.

Originally Posted by nolidad

Those who wish to see the country move more toward a Euro-socialist style of government and those who want to return to a more constitutional style of minimalist federal govt. Though I am dead opposed to it- I think and believe we are seeing a massive paradigm shift towards socialism.

Like Jerry said, I don't see the second group you're referring to. Unless you were talking about someone like Ron Paul and his supporters... but I don't think that they'd represent the "other half" of the country, or the conservative side.

Originally Posted by Rainer.

I don't know how the truly brilliant don't have a chance. High ranking politicians aren't popular for the sake of being popular in a celebrity fashion very often. They are usually very popular because they are very good at what they do. Your average U.S. Senator is not your average person, at least in the qualities that make for good politics. And the scrutiny we put on the personal lives of the people we elect to office? My goodness, I don't think I could stand up to that when I hit 40-45.

Meh, I'd say that the truly brilliant very rarely fall into one of the two mainstream groups.

Originally Posted by Rainer.

One of the very first things that happened after Washington left office was the formation of political parties; the Federalists and the Democratic-Republicans. Major party support has been a part of every presidential election. Communication to the average citizen is one of the things a candidate has to do. I think you're underestimating the education of the American public; the basis of our government is that the people can lead themselves, and the various linking institutions between the people and their government actually do a pretty good job of keeping the public informed. The majority of Americans with little political interest don't vote.

Well, the majority of Americans don't vote.... so therefore the majority of Americans have little political interest.... and little political knowledge. Which kind of proves my point. And I agree that parties have been a part of every election for a very long time. I suppose I just dislike the idea of parties, because of the fact that neither of the major ones even comes close to agreeing with my views...

Originally Posted by Rainer.

Go to some countries with truly horrendous systems of government, and see how much you like ours then. My parents came over to the U.S.A. during the Vietnam War. They're definitely some of the most patriotic people I know.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm a spoiled American kid. But at the same time, I'd rather not have to compare our system of government with some absolute failures, in order to feel good about it.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Mullet

Meh, I'd say that the truly brilliant very rarely fall into one of the two mainstream groups.

But now I'm curious. Who are these people you speak of, where do they fall, and why should they be our Presidents, Senators, and Representatives? And most importantly, why aren't they on the ballot?

Well, the majority of Americans don't vote.... so therefore the majority of Americans have little political interest.... and little political knowledge. Which kind of proves my point. And I agree that parties have been a part of every election for a very long time. I suppose I just dislike the idea of parties, because of the fact that neither of the major ones even comes close to agreeing with my views...

Technically, the majority of Americans, do vote; we do average over 50% during major elections, over 60% for a few elections now.

You oppose the idea of parties, but what sort of political system would you propose instead? Full pluralism, I'd argue, with 10-20 parties vying for different offices would be quite the challenge for a voting population that you yourself have already described as apathetic and uneducated. And no parties whatsoever, people simply running for office on fully their own initiative; you can see that this would work on a very basic community level, but once it comes to a national election, it would get pretty dicey.

If you say that the public is incapable of choosing a proper leader, democracy in general is sort of screwed.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm a spoiled American kid. But at the same time, I'd rather not have to compare our system of government with some absolute failures, in order to feel good about it.

But it is rather enlightening to how well our system of government actually works. Even if someones I feel like the only one that feels that way.

[nolidad]

Like Jerry said, I don't see the second group you're referring to. Unless you were talking about someone like Ron Paul and his supporters... but I don't think that they'd represent the "other half" of the country, or the conservative side.

I forgot I created this thread!!!!!

These people are not so much a political party as a bunch of like minded people. They tend ot vote republican because they know that 3rd party candidates will not win under ourt current system so they vote the more moderate of the 2 candidates (the one who will do less harm IOW) You are seeing more and more of them in the twon halls and tea parties.

Beleive it or not and history proves it true- they ar epeopel who generally don't make too much of a ruckus. They work, pay their taxes, raise their families, want the govt. to help the truly needy, gop to church (not all but most) and beleive govt. is servant of the people and limited in its scope. They (and I am one I will not pretend otherwise) have becoem threatened byu the enormous debt, the vast expansion of federal power and intrusiveness of the federal govt. These people overwhelmingly supported Bush, then overwhelmingly voiced their displeasure with him when he greatly expanded the scope of the fed and grew the federal debt.

[mulletman]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I forgot I created this thread!!!!!

These people are not so much a political party as a bunch of like minded people. They tend ot vote republican because they know that 3rd party candidates will not win under ourt current system so they vote the more moderate of the 2 candidates (the one who will do less harm IOW) You are seeing more and more of them in the twon halls and tea parties.

Meh, I still don't buy it. And even if it's true, it's still indefensible. To quote Jerry Garcia.... "Consistently choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil."

Originally Posted by nolidad

These people overwhelmingly supported Bush, then overwhelmingly voiced their displeasure with him when he greatly expanded the scope of the fed and grew the federal debt.

I didn't see it.

[redbaron]

Nancy Pelosi - A fan of protesters and disruption... then