Modes, is there really a point?

bostykid · 08-10-2009, 01:25 PM

Is there a point why people spend so much time learning all the modes?
Is there a practical use for these modes?
Aren't they simply the same notes but rearranged?

i.e.) A song is in the Key of C Major so I can use....
C Ionian - C D E F G A B
D Dorian - D E F G A B C
so forth.....

I understand the different use of the major (ionian) and the minor scales (aeolian and harmonic)
but the rest of the modes seem, well, useless.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

TravisR · 08-10-2009, 01:53 PM

I don't understand what you mean by modes.

Nate · 08-10-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bostykid

Is there a point why people spend so much time learning all the modes?
Is there a practical use for these modes?
Aren't they simply the same notes but rearranged?

Technically, all music in the West since Bach's day is "simply the same notes rearranged."

Quote:

A song is in the Key of C Major so I can use....
C Ionian - C D E F G A B
D Dorian - D E F G A B C
so forth.....

This is part of your confusion. "C Major" is itself a mode.

If you are playing "in C major," you are necessarily also in "C Ionian," and not in D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc. All of those other modes would have other tonal centers and you call the piece "in D Dorian" instead of "in C major" if the tonal center were D instead, for example.

Quote:

I understand the different use of the major (ionian) and the minor scales (aeolian and harmonic)
but the rest of the modes seem, well, useless.

The major and minor scales are exact analogies to the uses available to you through the other modes. It just so happens that the Ionian and Aeolian modes tend to have the most pleasing harmonic progressions to our modern, Western sensibilities, so they get used more.

"Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic," for example, is in a Lydian "key".

The hymn "What Wondrous Love Is This," as another example, is Dorian.

It is the tonal center that defines the letter name of the "key," with the "rearranged" notes defining the tonality (major, dorian, minor, etc). In this way "C major" is not the "same" as "A minor," because the tonal centers differ. In exactly the same way, it's not the same as D Dorian.

bostykid · 08-10-2009, 03:04 PM

So modes is more or less an emphasis on a specific tone.
Would you say then there is a strong correlation between chord progressions and the mode of a song? If there is can you clarify?

For me, at the moment, I can listen to a song and determine its major key (Ionian mode) and its relative minor without a problem. If there is an odd chord such as the III, I can recognize it revolves around the harmonic minor instead of the minor since the raised third in the III (in regards to major) is due to the raised seventh of the harmonic minor scale. In other words, it's a III in the major scale and a V in the harmonic minor.

The thing that confuses me is if all the notes are the same, how can one listen to a song and say it's one mode instead of the other. Ionian (Major) vs. minor and harmonic minor is easy since there are raised notes.

Nate · 08-10-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bostykid

So modes is more or less an emphasis on a specific tone.

Sure.

Quote:

Would you say then there is a strong correlation between chord progressions and the mode of a song? If there is can you clarify?

Yes.

In C major [Ionian], for example, all of the chords for the chord progression will be built up using the notes of the C major scale [Ionian mode]:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C[-D]

Etc, etc, etc.

The chords on the first, fourth, and fifth scale degrees [notes in the scale] are sufficient to identify the tonality of the key. They're all major in Ionian mode.

In A minor [Aeolian], similarly, all of the chords for the chord progression will also be built up using the notes of the A minor scale [Aeolian mode]:

A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A[-B]

Etc, etc, etc.

These four chords (on the first, fourth, and fifth scale degrees again) are sufficient to identify the minor key tonality. This time, they're all minor chords for Aeolian.

The way that the modes work out (no mystery to this, just the facts) is that the chords built on the first, fourth, and fifth scale degrees will be a mix of major and minor:

Ionian: (you know this one already)
Dorian: i (minor), IV (major), v (minor)
Phrygian: i (minor), iv (minor), v^o (DIMINISHED!)
Lydian: I (major), iv^o (diminished!), V (major)
Mixolydian: I (major), IV (major), v (minor)
Aeolian: (you know this one already, too)
[Locrian: (hardly ever used, as i^o is diminished)]

Similarly, the often used "ii" chord and the "relative" "vi" chord are not uniformly minor (as they are in major key / Ionian mode) across the different modes.

Because of the way the sonorities of the chords work out, different modes tend to use different sorts of progressions. Some have additional alterations.

One such alteration, for example, is one you're already familiar with: the harmonic minor. It is not simply Aeolian mode with a raised seventh. It's more subtle.

The reason the 7th note of the Aeolian mode is raised for the "harmonic minor" scale is for--you guessed it--harmonic reasons. It's to provide the "leading tone."

In major, the V-I progression is strong, because of the perfect fifth leap between chord roots and the half-step motion between the third of the V chord and the tonic, I.

You have the same perfect fifth leap in Aeolian, but you're missing the half-step that makes the cadence / progression so strong. To "fix" it, you just make the v chord major.

So, you have i, iv, V in "harmonic minor," where you had i, iv, v in pure Aeolian. You don't usually run across, though, III⁺ chords (with the same sharp 7th scale degree), though.

The sharp note in the harmonic minor scale serves only harmonic purposes. Most alterations to modes will be similar (for example, to avoid the diminished v chord in Phrygian).

The final "resting place" (called the "tonic" or "tonal center" or etc etc etc), and any of these harmonic alterations that serve to get you there, are what determine the "letter name".

The notes in between that make up the other chords and shape the melodic contour are what determine the tonality (major, Dorian, etc) of the key / mode. One center, many modes.

The reason you do not call a piece in D Dorian "C Major only shifted up a note" or something similar is that the letter name "D" is the tonal center. It is "Dorian" because of the other stuff.

That "other stuff" is the reason you do not call "What Wondrous Love Is This" "D minor, with a sharp 6th scale degree". It has a "sharp 6th" [in relation to Aeolian], and so it is Dorian.

Quote:

For me, at the moment, I can listen to a song and determine its major key (Ionian mode) and its relative minor without a problem. If there is an odd chord such as the III, I can recognize it revolves around the harmonic minor instead of the minor since the raised third in the III (in regards to major) is due to the raised seventh of the harmonic minor scale. In other words, it's a III in the major scale and a V in the harmonic minor.

The thing that confuses me is if all the notes are the same, how can one listen to a song and say it's one mode instead of the other. Ionian (Major) vs. minor and harmonic minor is easy since there are raised notes.

Even major vs natural minor [exact same notes in both] is easy because we're very familiar with the harmonic qualities of a I-IV-V-I progression vs a i-iv-v-i progression. Modes are unfamiliar.

To be able to start picking out modes [which are just as different from each other as are major / minor, when it gets down to it], start listening to / playing some more truly modal music.

Pay attention to the subtle differences, and don't just write off chords that differ from your expectations as "weird chords stuck in a major key progression," but focus on them as unique to their modes.

**Rainer.** · 08-11-2009, 12:01 AM

Nate hit several points on the head.

I will make the note that I think modes are a grossly misunderstood part of music.

The most common modes you will see in modern music, and the four that I would suspect a progression is in first, are the Ionian, Aeolian, Mixolydian, and Dorian modes. The Aeolian and Dorian modes are minors, and the Ionian and Mixolydian are majors. Lydian (major) and Phrygian (minor) are much rarer, and Locrian is basically nonexistent. Much more common minor modalities are Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor (which can also in fact be made into their own sets of modes, though it is hardly useful to use any mode degree except the first).

I think if you study music a lot more, it'll more easily come to you, because these things are honestly better heard than talked about.

Folk_guy · 08-11-2009, 11:17 PM

Knowing the modes and which ones fit over which chords can help with improvisation. If you are playing over a ii (a minor chord, on the second note of the key signature), then the dorian mode starting on the same note as the tonic of the ii chord works well for improvise over that chord, or the mixolydian mode works well over a V chord, etc. But keep in mind that all of the modes in a key contain the same notes as the ionian mode of the scale, they just start and end on different notes.

**Rainer.** · 08-11-2009, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folk_guy

Knowing the modes and which ones fit over which chords can help with improvisation. If you are playing over a ii (a minor chord, on the second note of the key signature), then the dorian mode starting on the same note as the tonic of the ii chord works well for improvise over that chord, or the mixolydian mode works well over a V chord, etc. But keep in mind that all of the modes in a key contain the same notes as the ionian mode of the scale, they just start and end on different notes.

Yeah, you shouldn't have to think modally in that case. a simple major scale works because a progression with structure:
I ii iii IV V vi viio
...is written in an "ionian mode", so there's no switching to any other mode necessary.

A mode will generally apply to an entire progression and not isolated chords.

LC7rock · 08-12-2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainer.

Nate hit several points on the head.

I will make the note that I think modes are a grossly misunderstood part of music.

The most common modes you will see in modern music, and the four that I would suspect a progression is in first, are the Ionian, Aeolian, Mixolydian, and Dorian modes. The Aeolian and Dorian modes are minors, and the Ionian and Mixolydian are majors. Lydian (major) and Phrygian (minor) are much rarer, and Locrian is basically nonexistent. Much more common minor modalities are Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor (which can also in fact be made into their own sets of modes, though it is hardly useful to use any mode degree except the first).

I think if you study music a lot more, it'll more easily come to you, because these things are honestly better heard than talked about.

lol modes are actually really simple if you figure out they all base around a major scale in some way or form... you just adjust the whole scale so many steps... lol I find it easier to use (in what someone here on CGR called it) the "Nashville Numbering System"... (The whole 1,2,3,4... thing)

HairyScaryMark · 01-14-2010, 08:16 AM

There is a point but I'd suggest that until a musician has a decent understanding of keys and is used to improvising and writing music using the standard scales that it isn't worth spending a lot of time on modes (at least the non-standard ones).

You can use these modes because they fit over particular chords but also to add 'colour tones' to your playing,. Sometimes it is also easy to think of one thing in relation to another. I.e using the notes of one scale to play over many chords.

Also, most of the worship songs I've played so far have been in Major.

crazymoose · 01-14-2010, 08:50 AM

This reminds me of a kid at my school during a guitar lesson thing who started going on about the dotrian mode. Not the dorian mode, he was very emphatic, and apparently if you're going to play country guitar you have to play in dotrian, and nothing else. And apparently every genre has its own mode that all songs in that genre are in. I think Ionian was for classical and aoelian was for metal. So he said if you play with a country band and you use anything other than dotrian it will sound terrible because it's not country music. My suspicions that most grade 9 guitar players are just doing it to be cool and actually have no clue were confirmed a little more that day.

This also reminds me I need to work on my modes...

metropolis4 · 01-14-2010, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazymoose

This reminds me of a kid at my school during a guitar lesson thing who started going on about the dotrian mode. Not the dorian mode, he was very emphatic, and apparently if you're going to play country guitar you have to play in dotrian, and nothing else. And apparently every genre has its own mode that all songs in that genre are in. I think Ionian was for classical and aoelian was for metal. So he said if you play with a country band and you use anything other than dotrian it will sound terrible because it's not country music. My suspicions that most grade 9 guitar players are just doing it to be cool and actually have no clue were confirmed a little more that day.

That's hilarious

Next time he says this about country you might point out the heavy use of mixolydian in this style of music

Quote:

I understand the different use of the major (ionian) and the minor scales (aeolian and harmonic)
but the rest of the modes seem, well, useless.

Everyone else has pretty much answered your question, but I saw this part of your post and wanted to offer a suggestion. By understanding the different use of the major and minor scales you already have a good start to understanding your modes. After all, the minor scale is the same as the major, just starting on a different note right? But notice how they feel and sound different? I would use that as a starting point to understanding the modes. Every other mode is the same way. They all have different sounds and different uses

B7#5b9 · 01-29-2010, 12:20 PM

Watch the "Mode" videos here. It's about sound...

http://www.youtube.com/ReverendTFunk

HairyScaryMark · 01-30-2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metropolis4

Everyone else has pretty much answered your question, but I saw this part of your post and wanted to offer a suggestion. By understanding the different use of the major and minor scales you already have a good start to understanding your modes. After all, the minor scale is the same as the major, just starting on a different note right? But notice how they feel and sound different? I would use that as a starting point to understanding the modes. Every other mode is the same way. They all have different sounds and different uses

The natural minor scale or Aeoleon mode is the same as the Major scale or Ionian mode starting on the 6th tone. There are however a number of different sorts of minor scales. Conventially there is Melodic and Harmonic Minor although in a modern context it usually isn't thought of so much this way.

The 7 church modes (my spelling isn't great)

Ionian (major)
Dorian (minor #6)
Phyrigian (minor b2)
Lydian (Major #4)
Mixlydian (Major flat 7 or dominant)
Aeoleon (natural minor or melodic minor descending)
Locrian (minor flat 5, flat 2)

If we consider the 3 types of chords/tonality as major, minor and dominant (classing diminished the same as dominant)

Major - Ionian and Lydian
Dominant - Mixlydian and possibly Locrian (perhaps)
Minor - Dorian, Phyrigian and Aeloleon

I still suggest you'd be best learning about harmony through the more conventional/textbook means first then looking further into the modes and less conventional forms of harmony later, once you've got a good grasp of the 'normal' theory, if you don't already.

metropolis4 · 01-31-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HairyScaryMark

The natural minor scale or Aeoleon mode is the same as the Major scale or Ionian mode starting on the 6th tone. There are however a number of different sorts of minor scales. Conventially there is Melodic and Harmonic Minor although in a modern context it usually isn't thought of so much this way.

Yes, but those are scales, not modes. The OP was asking specifically about modes. You gotta walk before you can run