[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by slap_j

I think you ought to go back and reread because this isn't close.

All of your posts, from what I have read thus far, up to this point have been attempting to justify the illegal downloading of music and saying that "not paying for an item doesnt constitute stealing".

So, if Ive missed something and gotten it wrong, please state plainly what you mean. Because thats what I got out of your posts.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

the lack of napster is depriving artists of me buying cds. Without it, I just don't buy many anymore.

Amazon.com is robbing record companies and artists of my dollars as well. Just saying...

Most of the arguments that it is theft would apply to buying a used cd as well.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by Sean.thomson

Just out of curiosity: What are your views on downloading movies that are playing in the theater?

Don't do it.

Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter

All of your posts, from what I have read thus far, up to this point have been attempting to justify the illegal downloading of music

On the contrary sir, exactly none of my posts have attempted to justify illegally downloading music because I don't believe you ought to illegally download music.

and saying that "not paying for an item doesnt constitute stealing".

I assume you were paraphrasing where I said, "Not buying a record doesn't deprive anyone of a sale." Two altogether different statements. Now, I didn't buy Yanni's last record. I didn't illegally download it. I wasn't interested at all. So, did I deprive him of anything because I didn't buy it? I don't think so.

Secondly, pirating music doesn't necessarily deprive anyone of a sale either. At least one person in this thread said that they illegally downloaded music as a "preview" prior to buying it.

[Skeeter]

Originally Posted by slap_j

Just to be clear: You're saying that whenever I don't buy something (music, books, food, clothes, etc.) I am depriving someone of a sale? Cause there are way more things I don't buy than things I do buy. I don't buy dynamite for instance. Never have.

I think we're missing each other on the interstellar highway of internet conversation.

If you don't buy something, you're certainly not depriving anyone of a sale. However, if you acquire that something via other means (ie. illegal means), then you're depriving someone of a sale.

I'm curious about the answer to that question. I understand your feelings, and that's absolutely fine, but it seems a bit orthogonal.

If you don't acquire the book legally, you don't get to read it. If you don't acquire the music legally, you don't get to listen to it.

[penguinofwar]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

It's a worse witness for a youth leader to worry about youth downloading music than worrying about, for instance, whether or not they're loving their neighbor in their high school and in their daily lives instead of contributing to marginalizing of certain outcast peers of theirs - as I was at one point.

agreed, like, a lot

Originally Posted by Billgamesh

I don't use itunes for most of red barons reasons.

Since I quit pirating... (I download constantly, and find the term used ignorantly such as this title horribly annoying) I buy very few cds these days. Oddly, other than the argument that it is illegal, I would not have a problem with it in all honesty. I bought the music I liked but now I am exposed to far less that I like.

I take occasional gambles off of amazon's used cd section. Mostly these days I use youtube for previewing, which I cannot for the life of me figure out how it is ethically different than napster.

agreed

Originally Posted by Billgamesh

How is downloading stealing? You take nothing from your neighbor. I mention this because there is a very big difference between taking something and copying it...

agreed

Originally Posted by redbaron

realistically, piracy only becomes theft when via downloading a copy of the media you don't buy it when you would have bought it before.

If you wouldn't have bought it in the first place, you're taking nothing from the artist, and if you buy it, they gain.

If you wouldn't have bought it in the first place, they're at least getting their product in front of you and perhaps planting a seed that will cause you to buy in the future.

I do agree that if you're just downloading albums instead of buying them it becomes much, much more questionable.

agreed

Originally Posted by slap_j

Yeah. If there were no laws prohibiting theft of property would it still be immoral to steal? Of course. Easy answer. But if there were no laws for infringing software copyright then would file sharing still be immoral? Dunno.

this is a good question

Originally Posted by scarlet.starlet

My question is this: why is it that so many people who would NEVER steal a car, NEVER shoplift a pair of jeans, NEVER take jewelry from someone's dresser...these people (myself among them) do not feel the slightest bit guilty for downloading music illegally?

I've never even felt tempted to commit what I would consider theft. If I don't feel like I'm stealing, how can I be? After all, I've got a conscience just like everyone else.

Does anyone have an explanation?

I feel the same way....I've got a conscience, probably more than most people I know, but I don't feel guilty about torrenting.

Originally Posted by Rainer.

Out of curiosity, does anyone other than me think that music is way expensive?

When I go out to buy a big artist's newest CD, it costs $20 for literally a couple pieces of plastic, when I can get a local indie artist's LP for $5-7ish, and all the money actually goes back to the artist rather than the label.

Not exactly on topic, but I still usually feel rather ripped off when I browse the CDs at the store.

CD's are ridiculous...I like having a physical copy, like someone has said before, but they cost a TON.... iTunes prices aren't a whole lot better (especially considering the quality)

Originally Posted by pretty much everybody

itunes sucks

agreed.


is torrenting right? not necessarily. But is it wrong? .....not really. It least thats how I look at it.

And, lets get one thing straight. Unless you're like, Bono, artists make pretty close to nothing for for selling CDs. Thus, I've heard a lot of artists encourage people to pirate.

For the record, I don't frequently torrent. Actually, I haven't torrented in about three years. And whoever said "I can't believe how youth leaders can watch their youth and not do something about torrenting" This is ridiculous! Of all the things you could teach someone, telling them that they should't torrent and worrying that they do is crazy to me... it just sounds like to me that you are suggesting that torrenting leads to a bad lifestyle, where I can't see that, like, at all. I don't see any evil in a person who torrents.

[scarlet.starlet]

Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter

\
I used to be bad about lieing. I could lie with a straight face, and not feel guilty about it, and never give it a second thought.
Why?

Not because it wasnt wrong. It was definately wrong. But I had grown so used to doing it, and had gotten so good at rationalizing why I had lied in a situation where the truth would have been better, that it just didnt bother me anymore.

Thankfully, Im much better in this area now than I was even as recently as a year ago.

Its not about "not feeling guilty" about it.

Is it right, or is it wrong?

The answer to that question is all that is relevant.

How you feel about it is completely irrelevant to that issue.

I can come up with rationalizations for individual lies, or for certain scenarios, but never for lying as a whole. I could not come up with an altruistic argument for lying all the time. It's universally considered to be immoral and anyone who seriously argued for lying routinely would not be taken seriously.

I think on a personal level, your answer was good and relevant. But when extrapolated to the rest of society, I'm not so sure that the two acts are equivalent.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by Skeeter

I think we're missing each other on the interstellar highway of internet conversation.

Yeah, I thought so too.

However, if you acquire that something via other means (ie. illegal means), then you're depriving someone of a sale.

I don't think that's necessarily the case though. To use an extreme example I let's say there's a song I can acquire for free legally, a song I have zero interest in. If I instead illegally download that same song and never listen to it have I deprived them of a sale?

If you don't acquire the book legally, you don't get to read it. If you don't acquire the music legally, you don't get to listen to it.

Legalities aside, is it immoral? If so then it raises questions about the expiration of patents and public domain.

[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by scarlet.starlet

I can come up with rationalizations for individual lies, or for certain scenarios, but never for lying as a whole. I could not come up with an altruistic argument for lying all the time. It's universally considered to be immoral and anyone who seriously argued for lying routinely would not be taken seriously.

Then you can begin to see my point of view. I see stealing as wrong. And I have a hard time taking seriously the comments of someone that is trying to justify stealing.

1. Its to expensive for my tastes. (rationalization)
2. The artist wont get that much money from a sale anyways. (rationalization)
3. I dont like the big record companies who occaisionally rip artists off. (rationalization).
4. They have plenty of money. (rationalization) And an interesting note on that. God considers withholding tithes to be stealing (Michah), yet he owns the universe, so how can such an inconsequential amount of money that we could offer do anything for God? Yet, it is stealing nonetheless.
5. There isnt any physical property being removed. (rationalization).
6. Noone was physically harmed. (rationalization)
7. I dont feel bad about it. (rationalization, and a crappy one at that compared to most of the others)

The list of rationalizations you could make for stealing is almost endless, but that doesnt change a thing regarding wether its right or wrong.

I think on a personal level, your answer was good and relevant. But when extrapolated to the rest of society, I'm not so sure that the two acts are equivalent.

So, if an individual lies, its wrong. But if as a society we all lie, then its ok? Or, if an individual steals, its fine. If as a society we say its ok to steal from someone, then its ok?

Im just extrapolating your logic to apply to the rest of society.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter

Then you can begin to see my point of view. I see stealing as wrong. And I have a hard time taking seriously the comments of someone that is trying to justify stealing.

1. Its to expensive for my tastes. (rationalization)
2. The artist wont get that much money from a sale anyways. (rationalization)
3. I dont like the big record companies who occaisionally rip artists off. (rationalization).
4. They have plenty of money. (rationalization) And an interesting note on that. God considers withholding tithes to be stealing (Michah), yet he owns the universe, so how can such an inconsequential amount of money that we could offer do anything for God? Yet, it is stealing nonetheless.
5. There isnt any physical property being removed. (rationalization).
6. Noone was physically harmed. (rationalization)
7. I dont feel bad about it. (rationalization, and a crappy one at that compared to most of the others)

The list of rationalizations you could make for stealing is almost endless, but that doesnt change a thing regarding wether its right or wrong.






So, if an individual lies, its wrong. But if as a society we all lie, then its ok? Or, if an individual steals, its fine. If as a society we say its ok to steal from someone, then its ok?

Im just extrapolating your logic to apply to the rest of society.

Hypothetical: What if it were legal?

[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Rainer.

Hypothetical: What if it were legal?

If it were legal to steal, I would have to appeal to a higher authority, which says stealing is wrong (which Im doing already anyways).

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter

If it were legal to steal, I would have to appeal to a higher authority, which says stealing is wrong (which Im doing already anyways).

If you make no distinction between software copyright infringement and theft then you must be against patent expiration. After all, your property cannot expire. And if intellectual property is the same thing...

[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by slap_j

If you make no distinction between software copyright infringement and theft then you must be against patent expiration. After all, your property cannot expire. And if intellectual property is the same thing...

lawl.

Now you've given me something to think about.

[scarlet.starlet]

Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter

Then you can begin to see my point of view. I see stealing as wrong. And I have a hard time taking seriously the comments of someone that is trying to justify stealing.

So, if an individual lies, its wrong. But if as a society we all lie, then its ok? Or, if an individual steals, its fine. If as a society we say its ok to steal from someone, then its ok?

Im just extrapolating your logic to apply to the rest of society.

My issue is that I can't convince myself that it's stealing. If I'm not taking something from someone else, I just don't see it as stealing.

As far as all of society lying, that would destroy society. If you can't trust anyone, no contracts of any kind can be made, no cooperation can be had...it's easy to extrapolate from there. Filesharing will not destroy society. At worst, it will destroy the record industry. And I think if the record industry was savvier, even that could be avoided.

[mtlmouth]

Copying music makes it a non-rivalrous commodity, since one person copying and listening doesn't prevent other people from using the same product. Someone involved with music piracy isn't eliminating copies that are for sale, they are just increasing the number available for free. So that's why a lot of people don't see illegal copying and downloading as equivalent to stealing.

[Skeeter]

Originally Posted by slap_j

I don't think that's necessarily the case though. To use an extreme example I let's say there's a song I can acquire for free legally, a song I have zero interest in. If I instead illegally download that same song and never listen to it have I deprived them of a sale?

Heh, I almost posted a similar example in my original post. That extreme, of course, is meant to show that it is not the acting illegally downloading that is immoral. Fair enough. I can accept that.

Legalities aside, is it immoral? If so then it raises questions about the expiration of patents and public domain.

Honestly, it gets into a bit of a grey area when you start considering such things. I fully admit that I have downloaded TV shows via torrent because I have missed them when they were on TV. This mainly because the legal methods of watching them on the internet are generally not available in Canada. The shows that I have done this with, I have later purchased the DVD (Heroes) or intend to (Dollhouse, it just came out and I haven't had the chance to purchase it yet). I have watched these shows once only. Personally, I put this on the same level as downloading a song to listen to it once to see if you like it enough to buy it. I'm not against a try before you buy system. In fact, I would argue that such a system increases rather than decreases sales.