[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by 1/2-Fast Player

> Guys are really not a lot different than girls.

Having raised one of each, I strongly disagree. Thoughts, attitudes, preferences, responses, etc., are different, and the differences begin before they can even speak.

Furthermore, being married to a delightful lady, vive la difference!

There are differences, but 99% of the mistakes I see are people assuming the differences are far greater and widespread than they are. Girls and guys have the same basic needs, emotions, and desires.

Most of the time, if you quit playing games, speak plainly, and do not attempt to conform to the John Wayne model of masculinity, I find I don't have problems communicating with either gender. My wife and I see differences, but in all honesty, a lot of the differences are not gender. They are personality, upbringing, values, etc. The idea that guys do this, girls do this, creates misfits.

But in reality, humans have the same needs. We all need food, shelter, safety, and security. We all need to be loved and valued. There are hundreds of other similar things where our needs are identical.

In my family, growing up there were 4 boys. There were dramatic differences in us all before we could even speak. It is less about gender than people think. Thus, I tend to attribute a bit more to personality, because for example, some guys are nothing like the stereotypes, some girls are nothing like the stereotypes.

[redbaron]

I think the real key is to treat people like individuals and treat them as such. I know I don't like getting crammed into some of the traditional male stereotypes, while certain stereotypes do fit.

Realistically you should be talking to each other and learning about the other person which would alleviate a lot of this. In any relationship whether romantic, friendship or even in your family, if you don't talk about stuff like this, there's no way anyone can know what's going on in your head.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by 1/2-Fast Player

They have the same basic bones and muscles, too, but there are important (and delightful!) differences in the relative sizes and shapes.

Sure there are similarities, but there are also important inherent differences in desires, emotional responses, communication, etc. It's important to acknowledge and understand those differences.

Yet if you look at the original post, you will see that clearly people do not know that. I dare say, I doubt you know the differences because quite frankly, the differences are individual rather than corporate.

Do guys like sports? Are guys emotional? Do guys express a wide range of emotions? Do girls? What do guys enjoy? What do girls?

I dare say your answers would be stereotypical

The fact of the matter is, the desires are at their core, identical for most of us. How they express themselves varies by individual.

Well, sure, but stereotypes tend to be accurate statistically. That's how stereotypes are formed, after all.

Yes, and we know that all black people and Hispanics are criminals, all Asians are smart, all Irish are drunk Brawlers, all Italians are in the mafia. Obviously these are statistically true because they are stereotypes.

Really, seriously, stereotypes are bullcrap. They are formed because of perception and they inform views of people as much as they observe.

*edited*

[rock_show_host]

I agree with Bill; I really don't think it's appropriate to pull the parent card here. I may not be married or have kids, but I'm a man, and I have close relationships with many different men and women. None of them fits neatly into gender stereotypes. If I tried to relate to them as such, at best I would probably offend them, and at worst I would make them feel like misfits or that there was something wrong with them. You don't have to have raised a kid to understand that human beings are individuals with unique characteristics.

I'm a man, yet I don't like sports, am not muscular or athletic, enjoy a good chick flick enormously, and am known to cry on occasion while listening to a powerful piece of music. Should I be treated as weird or unusual because of these traits? Or should someone expect me to conform so that they can claim to understand me without ever taking the time to get to know me as an individual?

Originally Posted by 1/2-Fast Player

Sure there are similarities, but there are also important inherent differences in desires, emotional responses, communication, etc. It's important to acknowledge and understand those differences.

Since you claim to understand those differences, what are they? I'd be interested to see a list. And I can almost guarantee you that if I did, I couldn't name a single man or woman I know who fits universally into either category.

[AlphaSigma]

Ah, Nature vs. Nurture.

[Rainer.]

I deleted most of the exchange, as most of it was things typed in anger or frustration that wasn't helping the original poster at all.

If anyone has any questions, PM me.

[fenderguy962]

> Guys are really not a lot different than girls.

Having raised one of each, I strongly disagree. Thoughts, attitudes, preferences, responses, etc., are different, and the differences begin before they can even speak.

Furthermore, being married to a delightful lady, vive la difference!

For that example to work, wouldn't you have had to raise at least four kids? Two boys and two girls would be the only way to prove that it wasn't just their individual personalities causing them to act differently from one another. If both girls acted the same and both boys acted the same your example would make a little more sense, but as it is girl 1 could act differently than girl 2 just as easily as boy 1 or 2.

I hope that made sense.

[tlj009]

For that example to work, wouldn't you have had to raise at least four kids? Two boys and two girls would be the only way to prove that it wasn't just their individual personalities causing them to act differently from one another. If both girls acted the same and both boys acted the same your example would make a little more sense, but as it is girl 1 could act differently than girl 2 just as easily as boy 1 or 2.

I hope that made sense.

Girls do act differently than boys. No one fits into every stereotype but girls do tend to act and think differently. They react differently in different situations. But none of that really matters when everyone is different anyway. You can't raise kids without seeing a difference in genders. But you can't blame everything on gender when personality is the biggest contributor when communicating with others.

[Kentl]

Originally Posted by tlj009

Girls do act differently than boys. No one fits into every stereotype but girls do tend to act and think differently. They react differently in different situations. But none of that really matters when everyone is different anyway. You can't raise kids without seeing a difference in genders. But you can't blame everything on gender when personality is the biggest contributor when communicating with others.

not true my sis and a lot of girls i know act the same why as me and my bros
and i am not like any guy i know with my hair and the way i act some think i am a girl if they dont get a good look

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by tlj009

Girls do act differently than boys. No one fits into every stereotype but girls do tend to act and think differently. They react differently in different situations. But none of that really matters when everyone is different anyway. You can't raise kids without seeing a difference in genders. But you can't blame everything on gender when personality is the biggest contributor when communicating with others.

There are some more common things, but the moment you start assuming a person is going to fit your preconceived notion of a stereotype is the moment you start really ceasing to see a person and starting to see a stereotype.

I bolded the part which I found most true.

I would go one further and say that gender is almost entirely useless in predicting how people will react to situations, because the tendencies are so often overshadowed by the individuality.

But I still say I think our fundamental, core drives render us very, very similar, so that differences tend to get blown out of proportion rapidly, especially in the teen years.

Its why I can never answer the question of what guys or girls might like, it is just too person dependant.

[tlj009]

There are some more common things, but the moment you start assuming a person is going to fit your preconceived notion of a stereotype is the moment you start really ceasing to see a person and starting to see a stereotype.

I bolded the part which I found most true.

I would go one further and say that gender is almost entirely useless in predicting how people will react to situations, because the tendencies are so often overshadowed by the individuality.

But I still say I think our fundamental, core drives render us very, very similar, so that differences tend to get blown out of proportion rapidly, especially in the teen years.

Its why I can never answer the question of what guys or girls might like, it is just too person dependant.

I agree. You can't predict actions for the individual based on gender. But you can recognize that there are differences in genders. It may not help you on an individual basis but there is also no reason to claim that there is no difference as others (not you) have indicated. I heard on the radio today about a study showing that when given conflict, women tend to seek out other women, men tend to try to solve the problem their self. That is nice to know, but I don't see the use on an individual basis.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I agree. You can't predict actions for the individual based on gender. But you can recognize that there are differences in genders. It may not help you on an individual basis but there is also no reason to claim that there is no difference as others (not you) have indicated. I heard on the radio today about a study showing that when given conflict, women tend to seek out other women, men tend to try to solve the problem their self. That is nice to know, but I don't see the use on an individual basis.

But the OP is going:

WOmen are like this. My girlfriend does this. I am a man. Men do not like this. She should know better.

For the OP, it ultimately will never work if you approach relationships that way.

ANd as far as that study goes... the very concept of a guy's crew in a gang, is guys essentially helping each other solve problems. Healthy, no. But guys do that, I have seen it in good ways, and in bad. And knowing vast trends will not help you with individuals. Because individuals do not follow trends precisely. And even a trend is only a snapshot of a culture at a point in time. It says nothing of the nature of men and women absolutely, it says something of the nature of the men and women at a place in a time.

Say 60% of men like sports and 30% of women. Men might as a group like sports more, but when push comes to shove, that does not mean I as a man like sports.

Statistics and trends are descriptive, not prescriptive. So what a group might trend towards is utterly irrelevant with when you are dealing with an individual. And the OP's girlfriend does not need to know, men, she needs to know a man. And the OP does not need to understand women, but a woman.

Communication is going to be the key, and in large part, the first step is to treat her how you would want to be treated. Yes, as you get to know somebody better you make adjustments, but the common ground is the place to start an understanding, not a stereotype.

[tlj009]

But the OP is going:

WOmen are like this. My girlfriend does this. I am a man. Men do not like this. She should know better.

For the OP, it ultimately will never work if you approach relationships that way.

ANd as far as that study goes... the very concept of a guy's crew in a gang, is guys essentially helping each other solve problems. Healthy, no. But guys do that, I have seen it in good ways, and in bad. And knowing vast trends will not help you with individuals. Because individuals do not follow trends precisely. And even a trend is only a snapshot of a culture at a point in time. It says nothing of the nature of men and women absolutely, it says something of the nature of the men and women at a place in a time.

Say 60% of men like sports and 30% of women. Men might as a group like sports more, but when push comes to shove, that does not mean I as a man like sports.

Statistics and trends are descriptive, not prescriptive. So what a group might trend towards is utterly irrelevant with when you are dealing with an individual. And the OP's girlfriend does not need to know, men, she needs to know a man. And the OP does not need to understand women, but a woman.

Communication is going to be the key, and in large part, the first step is to treat her how you would want to be treated. Yes, as you get to know somebody better you make adjustments, but the common ground is the place to start an understanding, not a stereotype.

Yeah. I really wasn't addressing the OP. And I do agree with you.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I agree. You can't predict actions for the individual based on gender. But you can recognize that there are differences in genders. It may not help you on an individual basis but there is also no reason to claim that there is no difference as others (not you) have indicated. I heard on the radio today about a study showing that when given conflict, women tend to seek out other women, men tend to try to solve the problem their self. That is nice to know, but I don't see the use on an individual basis.

I agree with this completely. Nothing wrong with acknowledging trends, but there's really no point in focusing on them to relate to a specific person.

Suppose I'm counseling a friend in conflict, and I see the data from that study you mentioned. I could approach my friend by saying, "You're a man -- that means you're trying to work things out yourself, right?" Or I could simply ask, "How are you trying to work things out?" I'll get the same information either way, but the latter way reduces the chance of offending him or making him feel like an outlier. Plus, it's simply more respectful to treat people as individuals rather than members of a group.

Originally Posted by Billgamesh

Statistics and trends are descriptive, not prescriptive. So what a group might trend towards is utterly irrelevant with when you are dealing with an individual. And the OP's girlfriend does not need to know, men, she needs to know a man. And the OP does not need to understand women, but a woman.

Communication is going to be the key, and in large part, the first step is to treat her how you would want to be treated. Yes, as you get to know somebody better you make adjustments, but the common ground is the place to start an understanding, not a stereotype.

Better than I could have said it.