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Unread 07-22-2009, 08:06 PM   #16
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Let's just hope for the sake of this site that guitars never fade.

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Unread 07-23-2009, 12:56 AM   #17
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Certainly arena rock and country music will not be enough to sustain the guitar indefinitely. You can get the same styles from a synthesizer (which many bands do).
Sorry, but I STRONGLY disagree with this!

I have a Godin MIDI guitar that I run into a Axon AX 100 MK II and then into a Yamaha Motif XS rack unit. Out of all the keyboard units I have tried, the Yamaha motif comes closest to a REAL acoustic and classical guitar sound.(Though the electric guitar sounds still have much to be desired from ANY synth...but I did not buy this unit for the guitar sounds, but the other natural acoustic instruments it does so well.)

But on the other hand, I have a electric guitar setup for my regular guitar sounds.

Even though the motif keyboard module can seem to mimic a guitar decently, I doubt very seriously that it will ever replace an actual guitar.

It is kind of like amp modeling....even axe fx owners will tell you that it is not a real tube amp sound....but it gets extremely close.

Some people want the real thing. That is why there is still such a huge demand for tube amps and that is 50 year old technology.

That is why I do not see modeling technology taking over tube amps anytime soon...just as I do not see the guitar going away anytime soon to replaced by a keyboard!

The technology is good, but lets face facts.....it's not THAT good!
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Unread 07-23-2009, 05:18 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joebloe12 View Post
Sorry, but I STRONGLY disagree with this!

I have a Godin MIDI guitar that I run into a Axon AX 100 MK II and then into a Yamaha Motif XS rack unit. Out of all the keyboard units I have tried, the Yamaha motif comes closest to a REAL acoustic and classical guitar sound.(Though the electric guitar sounds still have much to be desired from ANY synth...but I did not buy this unit for the guitar sounds, but the other natural acoustic instruments it does so well.)

But on the other hand, I have a electric guitar setup for my regular guitar sounds.

Even though the motif keyboard module can seem to mimic a guitar decently, I doubt very seriously that it will ever replace an actual guitar.

It is kind of like amp modeling....even axe fx owners will tell you that it is not a real tube amp sound....but it gets extremely close.

Some people want the real thing. That is why there is still such a huge demand for tube amps and that is 50 year old technology.

That is why I do not see modeling technology taking over tube amps anytime soon...just as I do not see the guitar going away anytime soon to replaced by a keyboard!

The technology is good, but lets face facts.....it's not THAT good!
:facepalm: That's not the point at all. He's saying that, like a lot of harpsichord music which can be played on piano now as nobody owns a harpsichord, eventually MANY MANY MANY (probably more than 50, maybe even more than 100) years down the road people will probably replace playing renditions of these songs, if anybody even tries (it's dubious whether either style will remain popular enough to do so in 50 to 100 years, more on the 100 side) they may do it with synthesizers because they can achieve the same STYLE, not exact same sound. In fact, the exact point he's trying to make is that people probably wont care that it doesn't sound like a real guitar.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 07:47 AM   #19
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:facepalm: That's not the point at all. He's saying that, like a lot of harpsichord music which can be played on piano now as nobody owns a harpsichord, eventually MANY MANY MANY (probably more than 50, maybe even more than 100) years down the road people will probably replace playing renditions of these songs, if anybody even tries (it's dubious whether either style will remain popular enough to do so in 50 to 100 years, more on the 100 side) they may do it with synthesizers because they can achieve the same STYLE, not exact same sound. In fact, the exact point he's trying to make is that people probably wont care that it doesn't sound like a real guitar.
Exactly. I just picked those two styles because they're probably the most traditionally guitar-driven, and yet even they are moving away from that.

I'm thinking along the lines of U2, Coldplay, etc. Everyone in that huge anthem rock style that used to be dominated by the likes of guitar-toters like Aerosmith, etc is headed in a more synthesized direction. People found out they could get the same in-your-face, wall-of-sound effect with triangle and sawtooth waves. It's not the same sound, but it's the same effect.

The same thing is happening in country. The stereotypical lone guitar-playing country singer like Johnny Cash is slowly becoming a thing of the past.

The problem isn't the guitar, nor the fact that it can be emulated. The problem is that the styles it has been married with just aren't strong enough as a performance repertoire to sustain the instrument. Those styles have always been about the performers first, then the music. To have a sustainable repertoire, it has to be the other way around (like in jazz or blues "standards").
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Unread 07-23-2009, 11:18 AM   #20
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hopefully the existence of guitar will stay it be terrible without it
but i think like what they are doing now they will be upgrade and adding a lot of features to make future guitars for example the robot guitar and this guitar had has a lcd screen on the body
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Unread 07-23-2009, 11:29 AM   #21
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Though I think that the guitar in some form or another (a fretted stringed instrument) is still one of the more ubiquitous instrumental forms, and so will always exist. Perhaps with changing numbers of strings or changing tunings; guitarists these days seem to be pretty lax about that anyway, but a guitar, balalaika, ukulele, charrango, mandolin, banjo, or what-have-you will always be around, and I bet if the Earth is still around in 1000 years, I'd still be able to find an instrument I can play similarly.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 11:39 AM   #22
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Nate, would you say that the guitar has only grasped the mantle of the mandolin since the '30s really? Mandolin seems to me to be the cultural equivalent of a guitar in the past. I am really not sure what came before really, but there seems to be a trend in instruments that is just a cultural shift. My guess would be fiddle was the instrument pre-mandolin from what I have heard.

I think you are going to have a simple fretted instrument that is grab and go in popularity. Could it shift back to mandolin, or banjo? Sure. Could it go to an octave mandolin or something else... sure.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 11:49 AM   #23
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Guitar-like instruments have been around for about 4000 years and have been the center piece of many musical cultures. I can't imagine it would ever go extinct or ever really be replaced.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 12:07 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by joebloe12 View Post
It is kind of like amp modeling....even axe fx owners will tell you that it is not a real tube amp sound....but it gets extremely close.

Some people want the real thing. That is why there is still such a huge demand for tube amps and that is 50 year old technology.

That is why I do not see modeling technology taking over tube amps anytime soon...just as I do not see the guitar going away anytime soon to replaced by a keyboard!
You know what though, amp modelers are getting better and better. They may not be better than a tube amp right now, but one day they may be able to replicate them perfectly, or even sound better. And then people may like the better reliability of modelers. You don't have to baby the tubes, wait for them to warm up, be careful to turn them off, don't move the amp right after turning it off, etc etc. Oh and the tube sound doesn't deteriorate as the tubes start to go. And there's no chance of blowing a tube in the middle of a show. I can honestly see solid state and amp modelers taking over tube once the technology progresses enough. And that's exactly the point of the original post. We're not necessarily talking any time soon, just if technology can progress enough.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 12:29 PM   #25
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You know what though, amp modelers are getting better and better. They may not be better than a tube amp right now, but one day they may be able to replicate them perfectly, or even sound better. And then people may like the better reliability of modelers. You don't have to baby the tubes, wait for them to warm up, be careful to turn them off, don't move the amp right after turning it off, etc etc. Oh and the tube sound doesn't deteriorate as the tubes start to go. And there's no chance of blowing a tube in the middle of a show. I can honestly see solid state and amp modelers taking over tube once the technology progresses enough. And that's exactly the point of the original post. We're not necessarily talking any time soon, just if technology can progress enough.
The problem isn't the modeling technology. The problem is people trying to make modelers something they are not, that is, amps. A modeler creates a line output that emulates the recorded sound of a mic'd amp. It's not exactly an amp replacement.

But that's a whole 'nother topic.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 01:56 PM   #26
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Nate, would you say that the guitar has only grasped the mantle of the mandolin since the '30s really? Mandolin seems to me to be the cultural equivalent of a guitar in the past. I am really not sure what came before really, but there seems to be a trend in instruments that is just a cultural shift. My guess would be fiddle was the instrument pre-mandolin from what I have heard.
You do see an awful lot of those "Victorian" paintings with the woman in her housecoat playing on a mandolin, don't you?

Mandolin, guitar, and violin all come from similar precursors. The lowest common denominator precursor of all of them was probably the vihuela of the 14th/15th century, which is pretty much a guitar with double courses and lute-like styling. The vihuela kind of turned into a smaller 5-course instrument (cittern, among other names) for ancient "guitarists," into different sorts of lutes for ancient "mandolinists," and kind of into the viola de gamba (cello-like, but fretted, though still bowed) for ancient "violinists."

The three instruments then kind of diverged from those three ancient counterparts until they arrived at their final forms.

It's my impression that the cittern, lute, and viol kind of held equal footing among amateur musicians, but I am by no means knowledgeable enough to really lend any substantial credence to that guess. I think the popularity of the mandolin versus the guitar versus the violin probably depended a lot on the particular region or culture for a long long time. Certainly in Spain, for instance, the guitar would have been the choice, whereas in Italy, it was probably the mandolin, and in Germany, probably the violin.

I would actually think that banjo was the more important instrument through the 30's for a lot of folks. The civil war is particularly associated with the banjo, as are the polkas and rags of the roaring 20s, and the jazz of the blackface minstrels.

Banjo is a great counter-example to the guitar, actually. There are a lot of styles for which banjo is an absolute necessity. Bluegrass obviously comes to mind. It's practically impossible to perform bluegrass without the voice of the banjo rolling along steadily in the background. It's part of the repertoire. Really old ragtime and a lot of traditional folk music (especially Irish traditional, which uses the tenor banjo) are also dependent on it. For the most part, though, you can get along without a guitar, expect in blues, etc.

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I think you are going to have a simple fretted instrument that is grab and go in popularity. Could it shift back to mandolin, or banjo? Sure. Could it go to an octave mandolin or something else... sure.
Yeah, that's just the thing about the guitar... it's an accompanimental, diversion instrument. It's not seen as a performance instrument except in scattered genres. It's hard to find older music written "for the guitar." Nearly everything "for the guitar" today is really "for the singer," with typical strummed accompaniment that could be replaced by a number of variations on the fretted instrument theme (you mention a few of them). It's obviously not the case in every genre, but it is more the case than it is for violin, piano, etc.

If I were to hazard a guess based on the popularity of Guitar Hero and the styling of the controller, I'd say we're actually headed back to the days of the autoharp. That would really be something to see.

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Though I think that the guitar in some form or another (a fretted stringed instrument) is still one of the more ubiquitous instrumental forms, and so will always exist. Perhaps with changing numbers of strings or changing tunings; guitarists these days seem to be pretty lax about that anyway, but a guitar, balalaika, ukulele, charrango, mandolin, banjo, or what-have-you will always be around, and I bet if the Earth is still around in 1000 years, I'd still be able to find an instrument I can play similarly.
I guess the question is when the "guitar" stops being a "guitar" and becomes something else.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 02:08 PM   #27
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I guess the question is when the "guitar" stops being a "guitar" and becomes something else.
yes and no i think they will be a lot more eazy but less soul in them as in like the piano that plays by it self it souds beutiful but it cant make new songs so dont worry we wont be out of a job any time soon
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Unread 07-23-2009, 02:19 PM   #28
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yes and no i think they will be a lot more eazy but less soul in them as in like the piano that plays by it self it souds beutiful but it cant make new songs so dont worry we wont be out of a job any time soon
I was talking mostly about physical, not technological changes. Everyone recognizes a player piano as a "piano," even if it's never played. Everyone would still recognize a "robot guitar" as a "guitar." What if the guitar evolved to have a tear-drop shaped body? Still a "guitar"? What if it lost or gained a string along the way? Still a "guitar"? What if double-courses (12-string) became the norm? Still a "guitar"? What if became larger and was played upright instead of across the body? Still a "guitar"?

What if it had a tear-dropped body, only four courses, each doubled, was larger, and was played upright? Would it still be a "guitar"? Or would it be a ....

Mandocello?

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Unread 07-23-2009, 02:46 PM   #29
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Ill admit, during the schoolyear I see myself playing a mandolin more than a guitar, just for portability reasons. That, and I really like mandolins, and you can pretty much steal violin music for it.

I associate civil war music with mandolins, and dulcimers, but really, my Appalachian roots are showing when I say that.

Also, with the antique instruments I see, bowlback mandolins, and lap-steels are the most common. I don't think banjos tend to hold up as well or something...

Although, I dare say rock and roll needs the timbre of an electric guitar. The only instruments I have seen actually work as a replacement are the electric violin, bagpipes, uillean pipes, and hurdy gurdy. They all have the same basic timbre as a distorted electric to a degree, much moreso in my opinion than a synth.

I really couldnt care less if guitar retains its role as the ubiquitous instrument. I think there is always going to be a call for an easy grab and go instrument that is acoustic though.
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Unread 07-23-2009, 02:50 PM   #30
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Ill admit, during the schoolyear I see myself playing a mandolin more than a guitar, just for portability reasons. That, and I really like mandolins, and you can pretty much steal violin music for it.

I associate civil war music with mandolins, and dulcimers, but really, my Appalachian roots are showing when I say that.

Also, with the antique instruments I see, bowlback mandolins, and lap-steels are the most common. I don't think banjos tend to hold up as well or something...

Although, I dare say rock and roll needs the timbre of an electric guitar. The only instruments I have seen actually work as a replacement are the electric violin, bagpipes, uillean pipes, and hurdy gurdy. They all have the same basic timbre as a distorted electric to a degree, much moreso in my opinion than a synth.
My first taste of a mandolin was at a Nicklecreek concert a few years back. Chris Theilen (sp?) was phenomenal on it. If you ever get the chance to hear a good mandolist (sp?) it's totally worth it.
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