[Stealth3si]

I have always believed that it was our Christian duty to simply preach the Gospel to nonbelievers as opposed to saving them or making them believe in Christianity but now I call this into question in seeking understanding.

Someone told me (in their denomination) that according to Matthew 28:19, "Go, and make disciples out of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit," Scripture teaches in a sense if we truly believe that Jesus is the son of God and is our savior, then we, "having a duty to God to save as many nonbelievers as we possibly can by making them believe in something they already don't," should try to save others.

In light of the verse, is the Great Commission, other than simply obeying God, a call to Christians to take part in saving the world, where our role is to spread the Word and save people?

What is God telling us to do?

[OiBoyz]

We can't save anyone. That's God's job. All we can do is proclaim the good news. Or so it seems to me.

[Daniel21TX]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

We can't save anyone. That's God's job. All we can do is proclaim the good news. Or so it seems to me.

I agree, the wind blows where it wills. We have no control over the regenerating power of God's Holy Spirit. There is only one Savior and His name is Jesus.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

We can't save anyone. That's God's job. All we can do is proclaim the good news. Or so it seems to me.

Bingo.

[Thrash]

well... That was quick!
I agree wholeheartedly with earlier statements!

[Ridley's Own]

See also: Wretched Urgency.

[Makotoseven]

salvation starts with God and ends with God.

[Jfool]

I agree too. We're called to "witness" the good news.

[Skeeter]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

See also: Wretched Urgency.

Man, it's been far too long since I've read the internet monk. I always appreciate his perspective.

[jesuslives1]

1 corinth. 3:6-8
I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. The mand who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. for we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

- its always good to question so we can reach a deeper understanding and relationship with our savior. : )

[Muffinly]

Keep in mind the passage isn't about making just "converts" but making disciples. Which is something we should be active doing by encouraging our Christian brothers and sisters, sharpening one another, challenging, speaking life you know. And inviting others who aren't following Christ yet.

So, yeah, God saves people. Sometimes he lets us be a part of that happening by being in the right place at the right time or whatever. That's always awesome too.

[AlphaSigma]

I agree with everything that's been said. I had a personal experience this week on my mission site where my staff and myself were repeatedly frustrated with our group because they weren't engaging with the gospel.

Knowing that it's God's power that brings people into that understanding is truly reliving. We are called to be obedient, but the 'saving' is done by God.

[Stealth3si]

Amen.

I appreciate all the replies and Spencer's article was insightful

(Going off on a tangent?) I know there is a negative connotation associated with proselytism, but what is it? What do you think of it? Does Scripture distinguish it from "evangelizing, witnessing, or converting?"

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Stealth3si

I appreciate all the replies and Spencer's article was insightful

Indeed. It showed much insight into the author's own life and experience with radical evangelists... but very little insight into the actual nature of Scriptural "witnessing." He can't even make his own arguments in unbiased words without tacking on ridiculous extremist analogies that make his position unassailable. It's a strawman argument par excellence.

It's impossible to argue against the caricature of "urgent" evangelism that he builds up throughout the entire article. You can't go two sentences in the article without running into some phrase designed to put a particular image of a "fire and brimstone" door-knocking, bicycle-riding, loud-mouthed, greased-hair Bible-thumper in the reader's head.

This isn't what a rational evangelical means by "urgency," though.

Perhaps the person who told you that you have a duty to "make people believe something they don't" was over-zealous, like the crazies Spencer is speaking out against. You shouldn't (and Spencer should have known better, too) let that poison your entire view of evangelism to the point that you recoil and say "Oh, my life of obedience is my only witness."

Originally Posted by Internet Monk

Quote me. There is no urgent concern for converting people in the New Testament. Did you get that down?

Ok, I'll quote you, Mr. Monk.

It would be easy to argue against this one single claim, but he goes on to "clarify" it by making a myriad other claims that are so ridiculous in his propping up of stereotyped characters of his opponents that the arguments he offers against these strawmen are so "obvious" to the reader that nobody would think to argue against them. I will try to do so anyway.

There is also no urgent concern for the numerical growth of churches by the efforts of members to convert others. There are no burgeoning church programs. There are no plans to train everyone to door knock and sell Jesus.

Well, yeah. Duh. This isn't what most rational people would mean by "an urgent concern for converting people."

There is an urgent concern for doctrinal and personal Christ-likeness. There is a concern for leadership, integrity, honesty and obedience to Christ in our personal lives. The idea that we are here to "win souls" and not to know and show God is bogus.

Well, yeah. Duh again. But "win souls" and "know God" are sides of a coin, not opposing ends of a see-saw.

(Going off on a tangent?) I know there is a negative connotation associated with proselytism, but what is it? What do you think of it? Does Scripture distinguish it from "evangelizing, witnessing, or converting?"

I think that if you can't relate to a negative connotation in your own mind, you shouldn't take someone's word for it.

"______s are stupid, ignorant, lazy good-for-nothings looking for government handouts without having to work for it."

There's a negative connotation for you, and one that I daresay is more pervasive in society than we'd like to admit.

Do you relate to that negative connotation? Do you find it in your own mind? If not, why the hell would you believe it?

Here is, to my mind, the best example of urgency, for both holiness and evangelism, that we can find in the New Testament:

Jude 17-22
But you, my dear friends, must remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ said. They told you that in the last times there would be scoffers whose purpose in life is to satisfy their ungodly desires. These people are the ones who are creating divisions among you. They follow their natural instincts because they do not have God’s Spirit in them.

But you, dear friends, must build each other up in your most holy faith, pray in the power of the Holy Spirit, and await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will bring you eternal life. In this way, you will keep yourselves safe in God’s love.

And you must show mercy to those whose faith is wavering. Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.

In this passage, urgency for "knowing and showing God" is paired, not contrasted, with an urgency for "winning souls."

Jude was writing to the church, urging them (Jude 3: "urging" -> "urgency"?) to keep themselves undefiled and to keep striving to defend the faith, know God, and all of the other wonderful things that all Christians should certainly try to do and that Spencer encourages. Then, he adds as part of that showing mercy to the faithless and snatching others from the fire.

This was a letter to the church, and Jude certainly had in mind primarily those in the church that had fallen away. I think it applies outside the church as well, especially when taken into context with what Paul writes about "not associating with the immoral brother" and the trade-off between church discipline and evangelism within and without the church.

Where James comments on Paul's overzealous thirst for faith ("show me your faith without works, and I will show you mine by what I do"), Jude comments on Paul's overzealous thirst for church obedience ("snatch others from the fire, rescuing them from the flames of judgement").

It is not enough to be content to be holy within our walls, to "live it out at home and at work" as Spencer put it. We must also snatch the unbelieving, doubting, and immoral (tempting the "flames of judgement") from within our own churches and from the world around us.

It is not enough to expel an immoral person. We must also snatch from the judgment that awaits them.

To Spencer's "wretched urgency," I would put forth as a Biblical alternative an "urgency for the wretched."

[nolidad]

Our "job" is to live our lives to the glory of God. IN this we are called to evangelize the lost- which simply means share the good news of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins.

Many have said- we do not convertr a soul- we scatter the seed and God brings the harvest. We do this not even first and foremost to save the lost, but to glorify God!! So we should be as busy as God calls us to be in the business of oure Father.