[Jfool]

As a parent, I am concerned about the direction many youth ministries are going. So much that I'm afraid my kids won't be participating.

Just some general "complaints", may not apply to individual experiences, but any comments welcome.

Why are so many youth programs straying from the biblical model?

Are we to give teens an alternative to the things of this world, or follow a secular model so they feel more comfortable coming to youth group?

Why are parents not involved?

I am concerned that my own instruction to my children will be compromised by a youth program that tends to separate parents from teens.

[darfaz]

I think your fears may be well founded. I have worked in youth ministry (both paid and volunteer) for nearly 10 years and I have questioned the motives of youth pastors/directors/ministries as a whole at times. However, I have some questions about your concerns.

Originally Posted by Jfool

Why are so many youth programs straying from the biblical model?

I'm not sure what your referring to. Is there a biblical model for youth ministry? Or are youth ministries not teaching the bible?

Originally Posted by Jfool

Are we to give teens an alternative to the things of this world, or follow a secular model so they feel more comfortable coming to youth group?

I think you are asking a very deep question, even to question the purpose of church services. Are they for the saved or unsaved? The answer probably goes beyond youth ministry.

Originally Posted by Jfool

Why are parents not involved?

In the different youth programs I have been involved in, this has been a problem. In fact I have witnessed youth pastors telling students to disobey their parents and attend lock-ins/retreats/mixed gender activities that I know their parents don't want their students at for whatever reason. I have also been involved in situations where pastors were counseling students and not sharing vital information with parents. This is troubling. I think its important for youth ministry personell to understand that the family should be the primary source of Christian instruction and modelling, and the youth group is supplementary. The family should be encouraged to support the youth ministry.

I was wondering if you had a specific issue or situation you were troubled by.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by Jfool

As a parent, I am concerned about the direction many youth ministries are going. So much that I'm afraid my kids won't be participating.

Just some general "complaints", may not apply to individual experiences, but any comments welcome.

Why are so many youth programs straying from the biblical model?

Are we to give teens an alternative to the things of this world, or follow a secular model so they feel more comfortable coming to youth group?

Why are parents not involved?

I am concerned that my own instruction to my children will be compromised by a youth program that tends to separate parents from teens.

Could you be more specific? What are some examples of ways you feel youth programs are straying from the Biblical model? Or following a secular model? Or excluding parents?

I can kind of see where you're coming from and think that these are potentially valid concerns, but a lot depends on how specifically you've seen them play out.

[jthomas1600]

Yeah, I hope you'll bring more specifics. This could be an interesting topic. I'll share some of my concerns. First some background on myself. For several years my wife and I were youth leaders until we just became too busy and turned it over to someone else. That was years ago in a small church. We now attend a large church -- well for us large, about 600 people -- and we have 3 kids ready to go through the youth ministry here. My kids are 5th, 6th, and 8th grade. The 8th grader is on a trip to Seattle with the youth group right now.

Anyway here are my concerns about youth ministry in general. These are not directed at my church at all. Just concerns in general.

Bigger is not always better. Years ago when my oldest boy wrestled in high school it was bigger, faster, stronger. It seems that many youth groups are all about being bigger, funner, louder. It seems we've adopted a Nicolodian (sp) style to our youth ministry. I'm not saying they should be all somber, boring, no fun aloud type affairs. But doesn't it seem like at 17, 18 years old we should be gearing them towards being adults and not facilitating them continuing to be children. Again I'm not advocating taking all the fun out.....just a more balanced approach than I see in some youth groups. When this bigger, faster, louder approach gets rolling it seems to over shadow any attempts at actual biblical teaching.

Also, how about a little service? Not just youth lead worship. That's great, but how about some service that does not result in the kids receiving praise. How about serving at a homeless shelter? How about helping with the church cleaning once a month? Or leading a service at the nursing home?

And jfool I agree that a lack of parental involvement is a big issue. I'm not home much, but I've taken to treating staff from my church to lunch during the week when I'm home. I want to have regular contact with our youth pastor so he knows he has my support and I am available to help out. Actually as a whole my church does quite well in this area. We have regular meeting and it's common for our kids to do scavenger hunts etc. where they are stopping by the houses of youth group families for meals and stuff.

Man I just re-read all that. I'm going to post it any way. I hope I don't come across as just being ornery.

[Jfool]

Thanks for all your replies. It looks like you all know what I'm driving at, especially darfaz' comment on the family being the primary source of Biblical instruction. If parents are not sharing Christ with their kids/teens, studies show they will discard what they learned from youth group before they reach the age of 25. This is what I mean by the "Biblical model"... Deuteronomy 6 and Ephesians 6:1-4. Other good comments: service is important, also teaching and modeling adult behavior and decision making. These things can be very inspiring and fun for teens who are hungry for growth. Learning how to rise above their peers in terms of maturity and confidence can be much more exciting than video games and fun with shaving cream or food. Mixed gender lock-ins, or any overnight partying is a good example. I have seen youth pastors try to be wacky weird & cool, at the expense of modeling good behavior. I agree with you jthomas about it not being all serious, and fun is important. But some activities are just not worthy of a Christian. Trips to a mega-mall for no purpose, movie nights with worthless or unholy features, halloween parties just for the sake of halloween, discussions of sex or romance with no parental knowledge or input... I may seem like an uptight parent to most people, but we have a lot of serious fun with our kids. Society today is feeding us more crap than ever. And we let the garbage creep into our kids' lives until they no longer see the true line between holy and sinful.

Thanks again for the comments. Not trying to throw stones at the youth pastors. I want my kids in youth group after all.

[darfaz]

In terms of parental involvement, I think often times parents are too reactive instead of proactive in the lives of their students. As a high school teacher, I see it all the time; parents will only contact the teacher after their student is failing with one week left in the semester. Many of the problems could have been avoided beforehand (Although off-topic I always contact parents first . The same principle applies here with youth ministries.

I know that the parents don't want to be seen as intrusive by thier kids, but there is nothing wrong with letting a youth pastor know what your expectations or feelings are about the youth ministry. If you have issues with your students' youth ministers, you should let them know. Even some of the things you have posted in this thread would be good to know. If you don't see the purpose of a youth group headed to the mall for no reason, ask the youth pastor. It would also be wise to communicate with other parents to see if they have the same concerns.

I'm not meaning that parents are solely responsible for the lack of involvement in their children's youth ministries, but if their is concern, parents have every right and responsibility to make the concerns known.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by darfaz

In terms of parental involvement, I think often times parents are too reactive instead of proactive in the lives of their students. As a high school teacher, I see it all the time; parents will only contact the teacher after their student is failing with one week left in the semester. Many of the problems could have been avoided beforehand (Although off-topic I always contact parents first . The same principle applies here with youth ministries.

I know that the parents don't want to be seen as intrusive by thier kids, but there is nothing wrong with letting a youth pastor know what your expectations or feelings are about the youth ministry. If you have issues with your students' youth ministers, you should let them know. Even some of the things you have posted in this thread would be good to know. If you don't see the purpose of a youth group headed to the mall for no reason, ask the youth pastor. It would also be wise to communicate with other parents to see if they have the same concerns.

I'm not meaning that parents are solely responsible for the lack of involvement in their children's youth ministries, but if their is concern, parents have every right and responsibility to make the concerns known.

I have to agree with this with for the most part. One of the things to keep in mind is that youth group is not a replacement for parental involvement at home. One of biggest things you can do to support your kids in youth group is to trust your youth pastor. Nothing can be more deflating for a youth pastor that being consistently undermined by parents that, instead of addressing concerns to the YP directly, talk to other parents and build up a mutual distrust as they gang up on the YP.

[jthomas1600]

I've made my views on the bigger, faster, funner mentality known...I'm not a big fan. But let me play the devils advocate for a minute concerning the "just for fun" activities. When we moved and were looking for a new church our biggest priorities were sound doctrine and biblical instruction. But we also looked for a place where we could surround our selves with like minded families similar to ours. I would like my kids to be friends with the kids in our church. My wife and I try to have families over as often as we can to facilitate this. But "just for fun" youth outings are another opportunity for my kids to bond with the other kids in the church. So I don't have a problem with them as long as they are a small part of a balanced approach. Someone in a previous posted mentioned movies that weren't glorifying to the Lord...I'm not talking about that at all. An example I'm OK with is the last outing my son went on. The youth group went to see an Astros game, and my wife tagged along and took our two daughters as well. So it was youth outing/family outing for my family. My son is in Seattle with the youth group this week. A very fun trip. They are doing upward basketball camps. About Upward The camps include a daily gospel presentation and are designed to reach the heart of the kids and not just teach basket ball. Anyway this turned into quite a ramble. Sorry.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Jfool

As a parent, I am concerned about the direction many youth ministries are going. So much that I'm afraid my kids won't be participating.

As student ministry pastor it's difficult to know how to respond when you make broad but vague statements about what students ministries are doing.

Why are so many youth programs straying from the biblical model?

This is what I mean by the "Biblical model"... Deuteronomy 6 and Ephesians 6:1-4.

Uhh that isn't youth ministries straying from the biblical model. That's parents straying from the biblical model.

If your church has a youth ministry which is attempting to replace parents, LEAVE THE CHURCH.

But I doubt that is what is actually happening. Youth ministry is a place for teenagers to connect with the church. It provides a place for age & stage specific discipleship, evangelism, and service. It doesn't replace the parents. It isn't the place where kids get fixed.

Are we to give teens an alternative to the things of this world

I'm not sure what you're saying. We offer them Christ. We offer than a purpose and a call to holiness. We don't call them to arbitrary and shallow alternatives to the world.

or follow a secular model so they feel more comfortable coming to youth group?

Why would it be wrong for students to feel comfortable at youth group? How is that secular?

Why are parents not involved?

I have no idea. You're going to have to be more specific.

My first inclination was to answer your question by simply saying, "They're bad parents." If a parent isn't involved in their child's spiritual growth, that is on them and/or the person building into them. Not the youth ministry.

I am concerned that my own instruction to my children will be compromised by a youth program that tends to separate parents from teens.

You're going to have to elaborate.

Originally Posted by Jfool

It looks like you all know what I'm driving at, especially darfaz' comment on the family being the primary source of Biblical instruction. If parents are not sharing Christ with their kids/teens, studies show they will discard what they learned from youth group before they reach the age of 25. This is what I mean by the "Biblical model"... Deuteronomy 6 and Ephesians 6:1-4.

How does sending your kids to youth group compromise this?

These things can be very inspiring and fun for teens who are hungry for growth.

Of course, most teenagers aren't hungry to grow. So if we only programmed or attempted to reach people who are hungry to grow then we'd fail to connect with most teenagers.

Learning how to rise above their peers in terms of maturity and confidence can be much more exciting than video games and fun with shaving cream or food.

I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. And more important than both of those is spiritual development.

Mixed gender lock-ins, or any overnight partying is a good example. I have seen youth pastors try to be wacky weird & cool, at the expense of modeling good behavior.

Can you give specific examples? When you make vague critiques it's difficult to know what you're referring to. You could mean a whole lot of different things by "good behavior."

Trips to a mega-mall for no purpose

That sounds like relational time to me. Why would that be bad?

halloween parties just for the sake of halloween

Is that the stated purpose?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by darfaz

I know that the parents don't want to be seen as intrusive by thier kids, but there is nothing wrong with letting a youth pastor know what your expectations or feelings are about the youth ministry. If you have issues with your students' youth ministers, you should let them know. Even some of the things you have posted in this thread would be good to know. If you don't see the purpose of a youth group headed to the mall for no reason, ask the youth pastor.

I don't disagree, but when doing this you need to be careful not to come off like you're on a witch hunt. You'll burn a youth pastor out real fast if they feel like someone is judging their every motive and looking for fault.

Ask honest questions.
Don't use questions to make accusations.

t would also be wise to communicate with other parents to see if they have the same concerns.

That sounds dangerously close to gossip to me. That's how rumors start and spread.

Originally Posted by thesteve

One of biggest things you can do to support your kids in youth group is to trust your youth pastor.

This is huge.

It's extremely difficult to lead a ministry when you find out parents disagree with your methods, question your motives, and don't talk to you about any of it.

Nothing can be more deflating for a youth pastor that being consistently undermined by parents that, instead of addressing concerns to the YP directly, talk to other parents and build up a mutual distrust as they gang up on the YP.

Very true.

I've been at my current church for about a year. The first 9 months were as a half-time intern and the last 3 have been as a full-time pastor. When I was brought on staff three families left the church and claimed it was because I had been hired (there was more going on in the church and they used me as the accuse).

They had three big complaints:

1) I don't talk to anyone or shake their hand
2) We only play video games on Sunday mornings
3) I don't teach the Bible and there are no Bible lessons

The first complaint is somewhat valid. I'm introverted so I don't naturally gravitate towards people I don't know. Of course, the flipside is that none of these people made an effort to talk to me or shake my hand. Therefore, they were guilty of the very thing they were accusing me of.

The second and third complaints were both blatantly false. All of my talks are on the internet on the student ministry website. Besides weekly sermon prep, I also develop handouts, point point presentations, and run the website w/the sermons. Two minutes of research would have proven their claims false.

Still, a group of parents started talking to each other making claims about what I did and did not do. They believed each other and NO ONE talked to me about it until after they'd left the church. And even then it wasn't them. It was someone else bringing it to my attention. Worse, they spread their lies to people without children in the ministry.

So I was a first time pastor in a declining ministry in a church which didn't trust me because people talked to each other about me instead of any of them talking to me.

It messes with your head pretty bad when you know people are talking about you, spreading lies, and completely unwilling to talk to you about it.

[Jfool]

Originally Posted by darfaz

In terms of parental involvement, I think often times parents are too reactive instead of proactive in the lives of their students. As a high school teacher, I see it all the time; parents will only contact the teacher after their student is failing with one week left in the semester. Many of the problems could have been avoided beforehand (Although off-topic I always contact parents first . The same principle applies here with youth ministries.

I know that the parents don't want to be seen as intrusive by thier kids, but there is nothing wrong with letting a youth pastor know what your expectations or feelings are about the youth ministry. If you have issues with your students' youth ministers, you should let them know. Even some of the things you have posted in this thread would be good to know. If you don't see the purpose of a youth group headed to the mall for no reason, ask the youth pastor. It would also be wise to communicate with other parents to see if they have the same concerns.

I'm not meaning that parents are solely responsible for the lack of involvement in their children's youth ministries, but if their is concern, parents have every right and responsibility to make the concerns known.

I wholeheartedly agree, the parents who only get involved after it's too late are at fault, but here is where the church can help PARENTS by teaching them to raise their children up in the way they should go...

[Jfool]

Originally Posted by Sean

As student ministry pastor it's difficult to know how to respond when you make broad but vague statements about what students ministries are doing.

Sean, hats off to you for being in the ministry, and your obvious passion for young people. I don’t mean to be vague, but my kids are a few years away from teen age and I’m struggling to resolve a lot of questions before hand. I am very glad you are posting because this is just the type of perspective I need.

Originally Posted by Sean

Uhh that isn't youth ministries straying from the biblical model. That's parents straying from the biblical model.

If your church has a youth ministry which is attempting to replace parents, LEAVE THE CHURCH.

Again, I agree totally. We have left two churches already. As I said in prior post, I hope the church would come along side parents and teach them to follow the Biblical model.

Originally Posted by Sean

But I doubt that is what is actually happening. Youth ministry is a place for teenagers to connect with the church. It provides a place for age & stage specific discipleship, evangelism, and service. It doesn't replace the parents. It isn't the place where kids get fixed.

The parents and teens should be connecting to the church as a family. It’s the same church they are trying to connect with. If we arrive at church and go our separate ways all the time, then the family unit is not central any more.

Originally Posted by Sean

I'm not sure what you're saying. We offer them Christ. We offer than a purpose and a call to holiness. We don't call them to arbitrary and shallow alternatives to the world.

Then I would probably love to have my kids at your youth program.

Originally Posted by Sean

Why would it be wrong for students to feel comfortable at youth group? How is that secular?

They should feel loved at youth group. And comfortable to some degree. But youth group should be noticeably different from the world they encounter elsewhere. Not just more of the same.

Originally Posted by Sean

I have no idea. You're going to have to be more specific.

My first inclination was to answer your question by simply saying, "They're bad parents." If a parent isn't involved in their child's spiritual growth, that is on them and/or the person building into them. Not the youth ministry.

This question could be phrased as “What should the youth ministry do when the parents appear to need help?” Answer: Help them. Bring the parents into the program. Require it. Integrate.

Originally Posted by Sean

You're going to have to elaborate.
How does sending your kids to youth group compromise this?

Example: If I’m teaching my kids to limit their TV (or eliminate it) or limit their video gaming (or eliminate it) or their internet usage… then the youth pastor can not be introducing these things as part of their program. Another example: If I’m teaching my kids all about the opposite sex, dating (or actually not dating), concepts of marriage, etc. then the youth pastor can not be confusing them with similar discussions. Especially one who just got out of college. No offense.

Originally Posted by Sean

Of course, most teenagers aren't hungry to grow. So if we only programmed or attempted to reach people who are hungry to grow then we'd fail to connect with most teenagers.

I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. And more important than both of those is spiritual development.

Every human being is hungry to grow. They express this hunger in different ways. Tap into it and help them experience spiritual growth they never knew possible. Yes, spiritual development is the goal.

Originally Posted by Sean

Can you give specific examples? When you make vague critiques it's difficult to know what you're referring to. You could mean a whole lot of different things by "good behavior."

That sounds like relational time to me. Why would that be bad?

Is that the stated purpose?

Again, I’m not trying to be vague, just concerned that we are teaching teens to look at everything they do in terms of “does this glorify God?”. I know some activities are just plain fun, and that is essential for healthy living. But I have seen too many youth groups focus on these fun things and never get to the point of ministry.

Sean, I am aware the job of youth pastor is a continual battle between the boss, the parents, and the passion for helping teens. It is almost never the youth pastor who falls short, but the parents and the church leadership. The parents don’t know how to raise teens, and the church sets unrealistic expectations on the YP. I feel that if the focus shifts to helping parents follow the Biblical model, then things get a lot better. But I haven’t ever seen this play out in real life. Hence my reason for posting such ambiguous questions and not being too clear. I’m still trying to put this all together. Thanks again for your front-line perspective, and God bless you for your work.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by Jfool

Example: If I’m teaching my kids to limit their TV (or eliminate it) or limit their video gaming (or eliminate it) or their internet usage… then the youth pastor can not be introducing these things as part of their program. Another example: If I’m teaching my kids all about the opposite sex, dating (or actually not dating), concepts of marriage, etc. then the youth pastor can not be confusing them with similar discussions. Especially one who just got out of college. No offense.

This confuses me a little. I can understand the frustration of trying to limit your kids' video game consumption and then sending them to a youth group that hosts video game nights, but a youth group/youth pastor cannot honestly be expected to accommodate every single parenting struggle. Suppose a parent wants their teen to be more physically active, and gets excited when they hear that their teen's youth group is hosting a hiking trip. Now, suppose there's another parent whose kid is not prone to intense physical activity, and feels secluded from the group because he/she doesn't feel up to participating in these hiking trips. Already, you have two parents with conflicting parenting needs, and you can't demand that a youth pastor accommodate both. However, If I'm completely misunderstanding your issue (which I probably am), please correct me.

And as for teaching your kids about dating, sex and marriage, what do you mean by "confusing them with similar discussions"? Frankly, if you don't want your kids to be having discussions about these topics with anyone but you, why are you sending them to youth group at all? That's not meant to be a stab -- again, I'm just wondering if I'm interpreting you correctly.

[Jfool]

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

This confuses me a little. I can understand the frustration of trying to limit your kids' video game consumption and then sending them to a youth group that hosts video game nights, but a youth group/youth pastor cannot honestly be expected to accommodate every single parenting struggle. Suppose a parent wants their teen to be more physically active, and gets excited when they hear that their teen's youth group is hosting a hiking trip. Now, suppose there's another parent whose kid is not prone to intense physical activity, and feels secluded from the group because he/she doesn't feel up to participating in these hiking trips. Already, you have two parents with conflicting parenting needs, and you can't demand that a youth pastor accommodate both. However, If I'm completely misunderstanding your issue (which I probably am), please correct me.

And as for teaching your kids about dating, sex and marriage, what do you mean by "confusing them with similar discussions"? Frankly, if you don't want your kids to be having discussions about these topics with anyone but you, why are you sending them to youth group at all? That's not meant to be a stab -- again, I'm just wondering if I'm interpreting you correctly.

You make valid points.

As far as point #1, yea that's a problem. I don't know. I see video games as a waste, and my kids have better things to do. Yea, they have played them, and will continue to do so on rare occasions. I realize that limits the amount of stuff they have in common with their peers, and that's why we try extra hard to hook up with families that hold the same values. So far we have found plenty of social activity without the need for it.

Point #2 (sex and dating) I think it is just important to have an understanding of what will be covered and what the teaching will be so that parents are not suprised. This is probably an issue that just requires extra up-front communication. After all, if I question the YP's teaching on this topic, then we are not going to be involved to begin with.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by Jfool

As far as point #1, yea that's a problem. I don't know. I see video games as a waste, and my kids have better things to do. Yea, they have played them, and will continue to do so on rare occasions. I realize that limits the amount of stuff they have in common with their peers, and that's why we try extra hard to hook up with families that hold the same values. So far we have found plenty of social activity without the need for it.

Fair enough. Again, I think that's a valid and worthwhile decision to make as a parent (just for reference, I'm 21 years old and unmarried, so take or leave my opinions as you will). I'd just reiterate that while you're welcome to look for social environments that don't violate your values, you can't walk into a youth group and expect the pastor to conform to your particular values. He has an entire group to consider.

Originally Posted by Jfool

Point #2 (sex and dating) I think it is just important to have an understanding of what will be covered and what the teaching will be so that parents are not suprised. This is probably an issue that just requires extra up-front communication. After all, if I question the YP's teaching on this topic, then we are not going to be involved to begin with.

Again, fair enough. I would be all in favor of more open communication between the pastor and parents. I would, however, echo those who have said that the way to encourage this is with an open line of communication, rather than parents gossiping behind the pastor's back.