[nolidad]

And I'm not aware that SCOTUS declared the test neutral. I've read the ruling, and they don't seem to have ruled on the test at all. What they ruled on was the motivation of the city's ruling.

They did rule that there was no evidence to support disparate impact- or that the evidence presented showed the test to be neither advantageous or disadvantageous to any ethnic group.

The Supreme Court Decides the New Haven Firefighter Case

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

How so? What races are negqatively impacted by a multiple choice quiz?

Blacks for one (though the referenced study is being a pain to find, it's been repeated from quite a few sources:

Kevin Michael Foster, an education anthropologist at the University of Texas at Austin’s College of Education, agreed that research has demonstrated a test score gap between blacks and whites. There are several theories about why, but a primary explanation has to do with minority students disproportionately receiving inferior educations compared to whites, he said.

“If you are African-American, there is a greater likelihood that throughout your academic career you have been taught by teachers of less experience, you have been taught in settings of low-performing schools,” Foster said.

During standardized tests, minorities are also vulnerable to performance anxieties that stem from cultural stereotypes, Foster said. The result, he said, is that historically marginalized groups often do worse on tests, especially “high stakes” tests that affect one’s livelihood or future life path.

In short: minorities often lack the experience at taking multiple-choice tests. I think he missed a big one "how to guess". I know I learned how to make a guess more likely right than wrong on a multiple-choice test (such as the fact that test writers are usually less specific on false answers).

So if a type of test benefits one group, and the test is not job appropriate (such as a test for firefighters lifting people and carrying them disadvantaging women), it should probably not be used.

I don't know why, in this case, no blacks passed: but I do know that it's not as clear as you assert it to be.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Blacks for one (though the referenced study is being a pain to find, it's been repeated from quite a few sources:

Kevin Michael Foster, an education anthropologist at the University of Texas at Austin’s College of Education, agreed that research has demonstrated a test score gap between blacks and whites. There are several theories about why, but a primary explanation has to do with minority students disproportionately receiving inferior educations compared to whites, he said.

“If you are African-American, there is a greater likelihood that throughout your academic career you have been taught by teachers of less experience, you have been taught in settings of low-performing schools,” Foster said.

During standardized tests, minorities are also vulnerable to performance anxieties that stem from cultural stereotypes, Foster said. The result, he said, is that historically marginalized groups often do worse on tests, especially “high stakes” tests that affect one’s livelihood or future life path.

In short: minorities often lack the experience at taking multiple-choice tests. I think he missed a big one "how to guess". I know I learned how to make a guess more likely right than wrong on a multiple-choice test (such as the fact that test writers are usually less specific on false answers).

So if a type of test benefits one group, and the test is not job appropriate (such as a test for firefighters lifting people and carrying them disadvantaging women), it should probably not be used.

I don't know why, in this case, no blacks passed: but I do know that it's not as clear as you assert it to be.

Well blacks did pass- they just didn't make the top 3 slots for captain and lieutenant.

I didn't realize New Haven was such a segregates school system as to make blacks stuck with inferior teachers.

Where is Foster accusing that just the blacks in federally mandated integrated public schools are somehow receiving inferior education while sitting next to Asains, Caucasians and Hispanics. Maybe many years ago-- but these firefighters were too young to be in "seperate but equal" schools.

Well the next part of this is very politically incorrect and I apologize in advance for the slurs but I hope it will get my point across.

Frogs, Limeys, Harps, Dagos, Waps, Ginnies, Chinks, slopes, gooks, towelheads, Canucks, spics,polocks, ragheads have all had their turn at teh plate at being stereotyped. Is this man Foster trying to say that blacks are incapable of rising above past wrongs to make it in America? That we allow all these other groups to partake in standardized testing and they perform but that blacks can"t? That was the premise of a pernicious book called the Bell Curve!

Discrimination still lives. It lives for many ethnic and religious groups. But the vast majority of Americans do not care about the color of skin- but we have pretty much as a society adopted the content of character ideal.

With all the african americans in positions of promience in this society today, and with American society very integrated at the educational level- I am amzed any sociologist would still pronounce blacks receive infgerior education, and are incapable of taking standardized testing methods all other people groups are able to take.

[TunerSteve]

So if a type of test benefits one group, and the test is not job appropriate (such as a test for firefighters lifting people and carrying them disadvantaging women), it should probably not be used.

I actually live in an area where they recently built firestations to accomidate both genders, and really made a push to hire more women as firefighters (rightfully so). Unfortuantely, they also decided to alter the testing in the above situation to a bare minimum standard, in order to get more women to pass. I would rather the firefighters that exhibit the greatest strength and stamina to pass these tests, so that in an emergency situation there would be a greater chance at saving the most people.

I believe that all tests are not equal, and never will be. Perhaps that's why so many private companies have gone to placement agencies for employees, so they can see how someone performs on the job, prior to actually hiring them. Basic skills are tested, but the potential employees get a chance to show what they can do in an actual job setting.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I didn't realize New Haven was such a segregates school system as to make blacks stuck with inferior teachers.

Statistically: blacks don't do as well on multiple-choice tests as whites. The same disparity is not seen on some other methods of testing.

Everything else is just opinion.

With all the african americans in positions of promience in this society today, and with American society very integrated at the educational level- I am amzed any sociologist would still pronounce blacks receive infgerior education, and are incapable of taking standardized testing methods all other people groups are able to take.

What is "incapable" and how does that relate to the topic.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Statistically: blacks don't do as well on multiple-choice tests as whites. The same disparity is not seen on some other methods of testing.

Everything else is just opinion.

What is "incapable" and how does that relate to the topic.

Well then is it genetic? Why only blacks?

Well if blacks are taught along side whites and asians and hispanics in the same classrooms, what makes them "less capable" on multiple choice tests as other race groups?

The arguments you present from Foster have no bearing on the case of the New HAven firefighters. The black firefighters were taufght alongside other races. what makes them "statistically" inferior in taking one of the easier forms of testing there is-multiple choice. The correct answer is present inthe choices and if one studied- then they would have the opportunity to recognize the correct answer from as group of 3-4 possibles.

If it can be proven that a multiple choioce test is racist because blacks are genetically predisposed to poorer performance on this type of test- thenyeah maybe towns hsould find a different method ology. But statistics are an untrustworthy guide because many skew the statistics to get to a certain conclusion.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well then is it genetic? Why only blacks?

Well if blacks are taught along side whites and asians and hispanics in the same classrooms, what makes them "less capable" on multiple choice tests as other race groups?

You seem to be arguing that "there's no such thing as racial bias in a test".

From a "skin color" standpoint, I agree with you. From a "disaffected group" I do not.

But more to the point, to follow your underlying presupposition is to presuppose that section 7 of the civil rights act is, itself, based on a false premise. You are no longer discussing this ruling, but the civil rights act itself (which is what the Chief Justice wants to do).

The arguments you present from Foster have no bearing on the case of the New HAven firefighters. The black firefighters were taufght alongside other races. what makes them "statistically" inferior in taking one of the easier forms of testing there is-multiple choice. The correct answer is present inthe choices and if one studied- then they would have the opportunity to recognize the correct answer from as group of 3-4 possibles.

So if I put up a question about the musical history of usher, you and a black teen would have the same chances?

What if I put your kids and some Hispanic kids in a test in Spanish?

I don't know if this test was biased or not. You don't know either. You are, again, arguing that bias is absolutely impossible. If that's true, then every successful suit to the contrary (many having survived SCOTUS), indeed chapter 7 of the civil rights act entirely, are entirely false.

If it can be proven that a multiple choioce test is racist because blacks are genetically predisposed to poorer performance on this type of test- thenyeah maybe towns hsould find a different method ology. But statistics are an untrustworthy guide because many skew the statistics to get to a certain conclusion.

There you are again dismissing the entire idea of testing bias. I have the same response as above.

[nolidad]

You seem to be arguing that "there's no such thing as racial bias in a test".

But I am not- I am arguing that there was no proof that this specific test was racially biased.

From a "skin color" standpoint, I agree with you. From a "disaffected group" I do not.

What does this mean?



But more to the point, to follow your underlying presupposition is to presuppose that section 7 of the civil rights act is, itself, based on a false premise. You are no longer discussing this ruling, but the civil rights act itself (which is what the Chief Justice wants to do).

Well I wanted to keep to the specific ruling , but you brought up the argument about blacks as a race do poorer than others on a multpile choice test.

as tot he chief Justice is that speculation on your part or do you have an exact qoute saying he wanted to use this case to reopen the civil rights act.

My whole contention is that the city gave a bono fide offer of promotion- candidiates followed the instructions- thus making it a de facto contract. The city wanted to throw out the results of the test for race based reasons which is discrimination on the part of the city. They could not prove actual discrimination in the test, nor disparate impact as a result of the test- so the majority of the court sided with the plaintiffs saying the reasons offered for invalidating what was accepted practice to gain promotion wasitself invalid. The court ruled that the "fear of a lawsuit" was invalid grounds.

I don't know if this test was biased or not. You don't know either. You are, again, arguing that bias is absolutely impossible. If that's true, then every successful suit to the contrary (many having survived SCOTUS), indeed chapter 7 of the civil rights act entirely, are entirely false.

No I am not arguing that bias is absolutely impossible- I am saying that the town itself hired this firm to produce racially neutral tests. No one argued the tests were racially biased. The major issue of this case was that the test was given (blacks did pass the test BTW) but they did not score high enough to make the top echelon for promotion consideration, the town fearing a lawsuit, sought to invalidate the test to accomadate a race out of fear of a lawsuit., the other candidates sued saying that was discrimination- a majority of the SCOTUS agreed with them. I would hold the same view if the reverse was true and only blacks scored well enough to make the top tier of promotable candidates.

I am confident that there are places in this land where tests are skewed towards particular groups. when they are disacovered they should be tossed or brought ot trial. the defendants di dnot file suit claiming a racially biased test.

So if I put up a question about the musical history of usher, you and a black teen would have the same chances?

yeah case I do not know what you are talking about. Did the New HAven firefighters test have qustions about the musical history of usher?

So they give an oral test and it is between me and a black teen. The tester asks the questions in ebonics-who would statistically stand a better chance- me or the black teen??

What if I put your kids and some Hispanic kids in a test in Spanish?

Were the black foirefighters illiterate in english? Did they speak native African languages only?

If they went to integrated schools- should we assume they were given the same education as the other races seated next to them?

There you are again dismissing the entire idea of testing bias. I have the same response as above.

Not in the least- never even implied it. I have said bias has occurred. All I have been saying is that the test given was not proven to be biased. If anything my answer is just the opposite:

If it can be proven that a multiple choioce test is racist because blacks are genetically predisposed to poorer performance on this type of test- thenyeah maybe towns hsould find a different method ology. But statistics are an untrustworthy guide because many skew the statistics to get to a certain conclusion.

If it can be demonstrated that multiple choice tests are inherently biased- then yes toss them out.
I will further say if ti can be demonstrated that fill in the blank tests favor one race over another- don't use them!

I will further say if oral exams or essay exams inherently favor one race over another- then toss them also!

If language in a test precludes a particular race-toss that out as well!

I will also say if a test is crafted to give a minority an unfair advantage to advance over other ethnic groups- that is just as much discrimination as crafting a test to put a minority at a disadvantage.

In th eNew HAven firefighter case- the test itself was not the issue- but tossingout the results because of a fear of lawsuit was.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

But I am not- I am arguing that there was no proof that this specific test was racially biased.

To be specific: no proof was offered. I agree.

What does this mean?

"race" isn't really genetic in any discussion being had here.

as tot he chief Justice is that speculation on your part or do you have an exact qoute saying he wanted to use this case to reopen the civil rights act.

And was overruled by every other judge. Perhaps he would be a bad nominee for the supreme court.

My whole contention is that the city gave a bono fide offer of promotion- candidiates followed the instructions- thus making it a de facto contract. The city wanted to throw out the results of the test for race based reasons which is discrimination on the part of the city. They could not prove actual discrimination in the test, nor disparate impact as a result of the test- so the majority of the court sided with the plaintiffs saying the reasons offered for invalidating what was accepted practice to gain promotion wasitself invalid. The court ruled that the "fear of a lawsuit" was invalid grounds.

And that's a very legitimate position. The court (barely) sided with you, and I don't assert them to be wrong.

I merely point out that there are other, also legitimate positions.

No I am not arguing that bias is absolutely impossible- I am saying that the town itself hired this firm to produce racially neutral tests. No one argued the tests were racially biased.

If the tests were available for review before hand and no one argued bias then, that would, I suspect, lead the court to less empathy for those disputing it now.

The major issue of this case was that the test was given (blacks did pass the test BTW) but they did not score high enough to make the top echelon for promotion consideration, the town fearing a lawsuit, sought to invalidate the test to accomadate a race out of fear of a lawsuit., the other candidates sued saying that was discrimination- a majority of the SCOTUS agreed with them. I would hold the same view if the reverse was true and only blacks scored well enough to make the top tier of promotable candidates.

That's about accurate. I don't disagree with the SCOTUS position here. The test might or might not have been biased, but the city failed to establish that it was.

yeah case I do not know what you are talking about. Did the New HAven firefighters test have qustions about the musical history of usher?

I have no idea. I was pointing out the ability of a test to have a bias, which you seemed to be arguing against. Whether the firefighter test was biased I don't know: though it was heavily weighted to multiple-choice which, I've been repeatedly told, is a type of test blacks don't do as well on, as a group, as other types of tests.

In fact, because of this, most organizations have gotten away from multiple-choice tests as evaluation criteria.

So they give an oral test and it is between me and a black teen. The tester asks the questions in ebonics-who would statistically stand a better chance- me or the black teen??

Exactly.

Were the black foirefighters illiterate in english? Did they speak native African languages only?

Straw man

If they went to integrated schools- should we assume they were given the same education as the other races seated next to them?

The statistics don't bear it out. You are making an appeal to ignorance.

Not in the least- never even implied it. I have said bias has occurred. All I have been saying is that the test given was not proven to be biased. If anything my answer is just the opposite:

I agree that bias was not sufficiently proven.

If it can be demonstrated that multiple choice tests are inherently biased- then yes toss them out.
I will further say if ti can be demonstrated that fill in the blank tests favor one race over another- don't use them!

There is indeed evidence to that effect.

I will also say if a test is crafted to give a minority an unfair advantage to advance over other ethnic groups- that is just as much discrimination as crafting a test to put a minority at a disadvantage.

I agree.

[nolidad]

And was overruled by every other judge. Perhaps he would be a bad nominee for the supreme court.

Well can you cite th eplace where Roberts was qouted as saying he wanted to use this case to reopen title 7 law or any full thrust on civil rights law?

And that's a very legitimate position. The court (barely) sided with you, and I don't assert them to be wrong.

I merely point out that there are other, also legitimate positions.

But i this case I see no other legitimate answer to be had.

1. The city used a test from a company it hired for its reputation to institute race neutral testing.
2. Th ecity followed all agreed upon procedures to post and notify the exam and what was to be expected.

3. the city gave all testees equal opportunity to prepare for the exam.
4. It entered into an oral contract with the union by saying it would promote form th equalified from th etesting list- this does make it binding on the city if no fault is found with th etesting methodology.
5. no disparate impact could be discerned, no discriminatory practices wewre uncovered. Thus no discriminiation was acted out by the administering the test and adhering to the results.
6. Fear of discrimination was determined to not be valid grounds to negate a valid and agreed upon methodology. Actual impact or discrimination was upheld to be th ethreshold.
7. To refuse to promote th equalified candidates in light of all these facts is legally a breach of contract by the city for invalid grounds.

There is a sensitivity to discrimination in many peoples minds that is for lack of a bewtter term too sensitive. The America of today is vastly different than the one when civil rights legislation was first passed in th e60's. Thereis and always be racism in all ethnic groups (yes blacks are racist too).

But our society has done pretty much all it can do to repair past wrongs on a societal level. Th epeople of today grew up in integrated schools, have had affirmative action for several generations to catchup and advance. It is time to try to live in a color blind society. If we find racial discrimination- step on it harshly and swiftly- but where it happens - not on society as a whole anymore. These firefighters who did pass the tests deserved their right to promotion because New Haven did not act is a doiscriminatory way to esclude blacks from th ehigher scor elevels that the others attained. It is sad that none did- but no fault was to be found with th ecity of the union. There really was no other conclusion that could fairtly be reached inthis specific case than th eone that was.

[nolidad]

BTW please forgive my even worse spelling than ususal . I am recovering from a very intense and woidespread coase of poison ivy on my arms, hands, chest and back. I was almost hospitalized because of the extent of the ivy and the massive infection that occurred. mY hands have swollen like a balloon and are just now going down to near normal.

I hate prednisone!!!