[j0s1ah]

Greetings.
I've been considering a few options after I graduate from college (May 2010). The options are listed in the title of this post. They are both means to ends, and ends in themselves. I'll explain. Both provide (in different ways and to different degrees) 2-4 years of work experience, monetary compensation, resume-building, international travel, and payment (at least partial) for further study (graduate school). They are also both things that I've been wanting to do for a while: service (cranked up a few notches, in my opinion, from e.g. community service at a thrift store), foreign immersion, the honor of serving as an officer in the military, etc.

Recently stumbled upon the "National Call to Service Program" which allows part of a military commitment to be satisfied via PC volunteering (Summary of National Call to Service Program - (U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs)). Pretty neat.

So yeah, just trying to pick some of your brains on the issues. Any experience in either one? What about graduate school payment?

I'd eventually like to get into international humanitarian work (I'm thinking from working with the UN, paid PC positions, orphanages, etc.), and plan on pursuing a graduate degree in either/or/all business, public policy, law, or divinity. My interests are just too broad, haha. But honestly, things change over the period of seven days, much less four years. So I have some broad goals and am trying to narrow down between these two steps which the wisest/most fulfilling decision.

Thanks for any insight.

[ICTHUS]

First of all, don't join the military. I'll come right out and say it: I'm pretty convinced that it is immoral for a Christian go to war, especially if you happen to be thinking of joining the American military, which has itself imbroiled in numerous conflicts for ostensibly altruistic purposes, but is really there for no other purpose than its own national aggrandizement.

There is no 'honor' in serving as an officer in the military, and I pity Christian people who think that military service is a path which is pleasing to God. You would be making a choice to go into a profession where it would be your job to command men to kill the very neighbor you ought to love. Is this Biblical, loving, or in keeping with the character of God revealed in Jesus?

Now that the Canon is closed, does God still command men to go to war? NO!

I have no idea whom or what the Peace Corps are. But you can achieve all the goals you mentioned without involving yourself in an immoral career in the military and killing the neighbor you're supposed to be loving.

[j0s1ah]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

First of all, don't join the military. I'll come right out and say it: I'm pretty convinced that it is immoral for a Christian go to war, especially if you happen to be thinking of joining the American military, which has itself imbroiled in numerous conflicts for ostensibly altruistic purposes, but is really there for no other purpose than its own national aggrandizement.

There is no 'honor' in serving as an officer in the military, and I pity Christian people who think that military service is a path which is pleasing to God. You would be making a choice to go into a profession where it would be your job to command men to kill the very neighbor you ought to love. Is this Biblical, loving, or in keeping with the character of God revealed in Jesus?

Now that the Canon is closed, does God still command men to go to war? NO!

I have no idea whom or what the Peace Corps are. But you can achieve all the goals you mentioned without involving yourself in an immoral career in the military and killing the neighbor you're supposed to be loving.

Wow, well I surely did not expect to open this can of worms on this forum, but should have known better. Though I disagree, you are entitled to your opinion.

Not to pointlessly meander in hypotheticals, but for example, what if my neighbor, whom I love, was about to get murdered by a thief? Should I stand and do nothing? Ran across these sites (Christians And War | Learn The Bible, http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL...each_pacifism/) and thought that they expose a sound preliminary look at the issue. Anyway, the ethics/morality of war are necessarily a factor in my decision.

I'd also bet that 10/10 companies in the private sector endorse policies that God hates-- the issue is not the organization but the response of the Christian.

[ICTHUS]

Since it's impossible to argue for a negative, let's hear why you think Christians are commanded to go to war?

[redbaron]

not only are there thousands of jobs in the armed services that don't involve combat & killing, there have been times where the government has required you to join whether you like it or not- and at those times I would see it as obeying the governing authorities.

Relatively speaking though, is it wrong to go to war to stop a genocide like we did in WWII?

Is it ok for us to let our unsaved neighbors go to fight while we stay home? At least as a believer if you're mortally wounded on the battlefield you have the peace of salvation.

Dismissing all war because bad things happen, and wars happen for the wrong reason is as unwise as promoting war as a first option.

It can be necessary, and it has been a good thing in the past, even at very, very high cost.

[Epaphras]

I agree that a career in the US military would be an unwise choice, if not downright immoral. Even though I disagree entirely with Christian military service, in the big picture, the military should never be just a means to and end for anybody. Unless of course the "end" is the end of your life, or the loss of your soul in the military machine. But don't fall for the same trap that countless disadvantaged youth fall for -- that the military is just a way to get job training and college money. Ask anyone in the military and they will tell you it never turns out like the recruiters tell you it will.

The Peace Corps is a great option, considering what you want to do with your career. Also consider the many Christian international development agencies that have programs similar to the Peace Corps. My scruples against the US military aside, I don't believe it would be the best way to serve your long-term goals. The Peace Corps or some other form of foreign service is much more aligned to a career in international development and working in global public policy.

[RubberChipmunk]

Originally Posted by redbaron

there have been times where the government has required you to join whether you like it or not- and at those times I would see it as obeying the governing authorities.

Not in the United States. The only thing the law requires you to do is "report" if you are drafted. Military service in the States is strictly voluntary under the constitution, and if you never volunteer for service when you report, you cannot be forcibly inducted into the armed services. Until you say you volunteer for service, you are civilian sector and they cannot give you any order you are expected to follow.

Relatively speaking though, is it wrong to go to war to stop a genocide like we did in WWII?

Is it ok for us to let our unsaved neighbors go to fight while we stay home? At least as a believer if you're mortally wounded on the battlefield you have the peace of salvation.

Dismissing all war because bad things happen, and wars happen for the wrong reason is as unwise as promoting war as a first option.

It can be necessary, and it has been a good thing in the past, even at very, very high cost.

Even WWII was fought as a result of national defense. We were attacked by the Japanese. We decimated them. Hitler was planning an invasion of America when he was done with Europe (not to mention he was being a ☺☺☺☺☺☺ to our friends). We took necessary action to protect not only ourselves, but the rest of the world itself.

There are times when war is necessary. Human nature is as it is. There has been no war fought by America for any necessary reason since WWII ended, but that doesn't mean it can't happen again, and when it does, I for one would like to know that there are still people volunteering to fight to protect my interests.

I can't look at anyone who joins the military in a negative light. I hate what our current government stands for. I hate the political wars we're getting into. I hate the world policing. I hate it all. But the people in the military who joined because they wanted to protect the rest of us still hope they can do just that. Changing the reasons for fighting comes from lawmaking, not from refusing to serve even if you want to.

I don't think now is a very good time to join the military. You will get drawn into an unnecessary and very illegal war. Wait it out and if its still something you want to do when we're being smart again, join then.

[j0s1ah]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

Since it's impossible to argue for a negative, let's hear why you think Christians are commanded to go to war?

Originally Posted by Epaphras

I agree that a career in the US military would be an unwise choice, if not downright immoral. Even though I disagree entirely with Christian military service, in the big picture, the military should never be just a means to and end for anybody. Unless of course the "end" is the end of your life, or the loss of your soul in the military machine. But don't fall for the same trap that countless disadvantaged youth fall for -- that the military is just a way to get job training and college money. Ask anyone in the military and they will tell you it never turns out like the recruiters tell you it will.

Wow. I am very surprised at the anti-military feedback which has been broadcasted on this thread. Here's my understanding.

God does not desire for evil to be rampant in society, unchecked. Any page of the Old Testament will verify this, as well as this passage from Romans in the NT.

Romans 13
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. (NIV)

Here, Paul states that the government acts as a "minister of God" when it executes violence against evil. Christians are citizens of two kingdoms, one earthly (our country) and one heavenly. Jesus implies in John 18:36 that it is right for earthly kingdoms to make just war. "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

1 Peter 2:13-4 confirms the teaching of Romans 13:3-4
In 1 Peter 2:13-14, we are taught: "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right."

Quoting Dr. John Piper:

Since the Scriptures teach that it is right for a nation to engage in a just war, it follows that it is therefore right for a Christian to fight in such a war. Some have argued that non-Christians may fight in wars but believers may not, but this distinction is not found in Scripture. Scripture teaches that it is not sin for a government to engage in a just war, and there is therefore nothing that forbids Christian from being involved in just wars.

It is important to realize that Christians don't fight necessarily on behalf of Christ and his church, but on behalf of institutions and authorities (namely nations) of earth. The Christian fights not as an agent of the church, but as an agent of the government of his country. Both are ultimately under the authority of God, but each has a distinct role.

Here's another quote from Piper:

Part of the answer to this difficulty lies in understanding the hyperbolic nature of much of the Sermon on the Mount. I don't think that Jesus is telling us never to respond to evil with force (such as in self-defense) or always to literally turn the other cheek when we are slapped any more than his command later in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 6:6 means that we should only pray when we are completely alone or his command in 5:29 means that some should literally gouge out their eyes. Jesus himself drove the thieves away from the temple with a whip (John 2:15) and Paul at times insisted on his rights as a Roman citizen (Acts 25:11; cf. also the interesting instance of 16:35-40). Jesus is using hyperbole to illustrate what our primary disposition and attitude should be, not to say that we should literally give in to every attempt to do evil against us. That is part of the answer.

The main part of the answer, however, lies in remembering that Jesus is speaking primarily to individuals. He is not mainly addressing governments here, but is primarily speaking at the personal level. This text, then, shows that an individual's primary response to evil should be to "turn the other cheek," while the other texts we have seen (e.g., Romans 13:3-4) show that government's God-given responsibility is to punish those who commit civil crimes (murder, terrorism, acts of war, etc.). While it is sometimes appropriate even for individuals to use self-defense, it is never appropriate for individuals to seek to punish others. But it is right, however, for governments both to take measures of self-defense and to execute retribution.

There are, in other words, various "spheres" of life. God has willed that some spheres include responsibilities that are not necessarily included in other spheres. Personally, it would be wrong for us to execute retribution on people who harm us. But passages like Romans 13:3-4 and John 18:36 show that Jesus is not denying governments the right to execute retribution on evildoers. Therefore, when a Christian is under the authority of the government and authorized to fight in a just war on the nation's behalf, it is appropriate for him to fight. For he is not fighting as a private individual, but as a representative of the government to which God has given the power of the sword.

In doing so, a Christian soldier should strive to love one's opponents in war as people, remembering that he opposes them as agents of the opposing government/system, not as private individuals. When at war, we need to look at people in the opposing army/terrorist group at two levels--the private, and governmental/public. Because of the private level, the soldier should pray for and love the opposing soldiers. And because of the public level, the soldier fights against them--not as private individuals, but as public representatives of the system and evil that is being opposed. That distinction, I am sure, would be hard to maintain in battle. Neither would it remove the pain and difficulty of being involved in fighting against other human beings. But it is perhaps a faint reflection of how the personal and governmental spheres overlap and involve one another while still remaining distinct.

Whew. I probably shouldn't have added fuel to this argument, as forum "discussions" rarely end in accord. It's merely my view (influenced by, among others, John Piper) about why/when it is just and right to engage in violence and war. Pretty much summed up in the "just war" theory which can probably be found on wikipedia. The anabaptists had some divisions over this area, too... Oh, history.

Anyway, away from the theological-ethical debate, I meant that for me, both the PC and military serve as ends in themselves and as means to ends. Actually, I think that most things in life meet this criteria, whether we see it or not. I am not some 17-year old violence-hungry high school senior itching to get away from parental authority and "blow stuff up." For better or worse, I hardly believe a word the recruiters say, and actually, I received a full scholarship to my current educational institution, valued at over $55,000 a year. God has opened doors and blessed me far beyond what I deserve! It's not that I am a disadvantaged youth looking for a handout, but rather it is a desire that I have to serve as an officer in the US military, and I believe it would be a great honor, despite views about the current leadership and policies. A desire. I also have a desire to continue my international/language education which could also be done in the PC. Both options offer amazing venues for different types of service, experience, and educational benefits-- all of which I am hoping to include in my next "season" of life, God-willing. That program I mentioned in my first post has been appealing to me a little more over the past few days, you can basically serve a 4 or 5 year commitment divided up between the military and the PC. Sounds dandy!

[Epaphras]

It sounds like you've already made up your mind. If you are looking for validation, you will not find it from me, unless your choice is for the Peace Corps or service in a Christian development organization.

A quick note on just war theory: it's a nice theory, but war is not nice. It never fits neatly into that theoretical framework; not even WWII. Let alone the current US military and economic policy. These days, the US military is more-or-less and extension of the economic colonialism (read: empire) that has been occurring since the end of WWII. Offers for loans for infrastructure investments in developing countries comes with a lot of strings attached, including exclusive rights of US companies to base operations there and make an exorbitant profit and essentially rape the people (for example, Coca Cola owns water utility companies in parts of India and commits price-gouging in times of drought, and pollutes the water supply in towns where they have bottling plants, and brutally suppress any kind of organization against it by using local militias and gangs). Another example is a loan being conditional on the US establishing a military base in that region. Basically it's all a ruse to establish complete economic and military dominance in the region, eventually the world. Read the book, Confessions of an Economic Hitman. It changed my life.

It is not right to look to the OT to justify military action, because the United States of America (or any other nation) is NOT Israel under the Old Testament. Read the early church fathers who laid down an ultimatum for Roman soldiers interested in joining the church -- they had to desert (and they would help them escape and start over) or they could not join. Until Constantine, it was considered a sin to be a part of the military and be a Christian.

[ICTHUS]

Brother,

I have been accused of 'condemning' you and being 'overly harsh'. Let me just say that that is not my intent at all. God is your judge, not me. And as for whether I am being overly harsh, consider for a moment that if I am right, then joining the military, particularly in a combat role, is just as immoral, if not moreso, than premarital sex, having an abortion, or deciding to make one's living by being a prostitute - and yet none of you, I hope, would call me 'overly harsh' if I told a person who was considering making their living by prostitution that the choice they were considering was gravely immoral!

Now then:

I want you to know that the following has been labored over. I have tried to word things carefully and think them through, I hope you will listen to what I have to say in the same spirit, and know that what I write, I write with a view to you not doing something which is repugnant in God's sight and wasting a portion of your life in a profession which is grievously sinful!

Opening this, I will quote St. Justin Martyr, one of the ante-Nicene Church Fathers.

‘We ourselves were well conversant with war, murder, and everything evil, but all of us throughout the whole wide earth have traded in our weapons of war. We have exchanged our swords for ploughshares, our spears for farm tools. Now we cultivate the fear of God, justice, kindness to men, faith, and the expectation of the future given to us by the Father himself through the Crucified One.'

- (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 110.3.4 about 160 AD)

Christ our Lord came down to earth to save a lost humanity. He could have merely blinked an eye and, sin would be undone, and the death of Death would have been accomplished. But instead, God decided that the manner in which the death of Death would be accomplished - was in the death - and not only the death, but the torture and humiliation - of Christ! Thus, the most powerful argument, for me, against the Christian's participation in the slaughter of his neighbor in war - is the precious death of our Lord Jesus! That Christ, "made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." (Phillipians 2:7-8) Christ even loved the men who orchestrated His execution!

Relevant Scripture

⁹"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

- Matthew 5:9

³⁸ "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' ³⁹But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ⁴⁰And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. ⁴¹And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. ⁴² Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. ⁴³ "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' ⁴⁴But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, ⁴⁵ so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. ⁴⁶ For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? ⁴⁷And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? ⁴⁸ You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matt 5:38-48

⁵¹And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. ⁵²Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.⁵³ Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? ⁵⁴ But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?"

Matt 26:51-54

¹⁴ Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. ¹⁵ Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. ¹⁶ Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. ¹⁷ Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. ¹⁸If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. ¹⁹Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." ²⁰To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." ²¹Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Rom 12:14-21

Also worth noting is that there are no mentions of Christians ever joining the military until about 160-170 AD, and widespread military membership among Christians did not occur until the reign of Constantine. For the first nearly 200 years of its existence, the Christian church considered serving in the military to be immoral for the Christian.

As for Romans 13 - you fail to see it in its context of Romans 12! How can you say that the Christian is called to share in the military's 'ministry' of serving the State based on Romans 13 when in Romans 12 you've just been told not to repay evil with evil and to love your enemies!

To be frank: I think what you have done, as Epaphras has said, is to find men like John Piper who agree with you on the morality of Christians going to war, and you have used their interpretations as justification for going to war. This is eisegesis. Let the Scriptures speak for themselves and you will find that they teach that the Christian is called to be a minister of peace - not of terror, war, and destruction!

[j0s1ah]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

Let the Scriptures speak for themselves and you will find that they teach that the Christian is called to be a minister of peace - not of terror, war, and destruction!

Thanks for your concern and thoughtful reply. For a lack of time, I just want to make a few notes.
I believe it is quite impossible to "let the Scripture speak for itself." Every time we read, we bring out situation, our experiences, our personal and societal contexts, etc. Not to mention, when one assumes an interpretation of a scripture or passage, one generally automatically assumes that all other interpretations are false or invalid. The bible is chock full of seeming "contradictions."

As to be completely chaste and as to be married (Matt. 19:10)
As to take a wife and not to take one (1 Cor. 7:9, 29)
As my testimony is true and is not true (John 5:31-32 and 8:14)
As to have all things and as to have nothing (2 Cor. 6:10)
As to be rich and to be poor (Matt. 5)
As to hate evildoers and to speak well of those who persecute us (Psalm 119:113, Romans 12:14)
As we should become children and yet we should not be children (Matthew 18:3 and 10:14, 1 Cor. 14:20, Eph. 4:14)
As God wants to save all people, yet is merciful to those who he chooses to be and hardens those wants (1 Tim. 2:4, Romans 9:18)
As to preach the gospel to all living creatures yet not to caste pearls to swine (Matthew 16, 7:16)
etc., etc., etc.

Hmm...

Was Jesus telling Peter to put away the sword because it is inherently wrong (as you are assuming)? Or that it was not the place of him to determine and enforce law?
Also, Jesus told Peter to sheath his sword, not to throw it away. Peter was trying to halt what had been ordained by God (Christ's death). Anyway, there a thousand and one ways to slice this. I am just exposing that each time we read, we read at a certain level, through a lens, or making assumptions about what the context is, etc.

We studied this same topic in a reformation history class-- it's most interesting. "The Christian Use of the Sword." For more about this debate (500 years ago), maybe read THE SCHLEITHEIM CONFESSION by Michael Sattler and On the Sword by Balthasar Hubmaier. Wise men with opposing view points, very well argued in both cases.

[TahoeJeff]

Wow, there are some people who have no idea what they're talking about.

Icthus and Epaphras, you have never been in the military, so I don't think you're in any position to give advice on this situation.

Icthus, I don't ask for or even want your pity. It means NOTHING to me. Why the hell do you think your pity is so valuable and what makes YOU the authority on honor? You're coming off as a judgemental ass. Just shut up.

He didn't ask for your theological views on the matter, he asked if anyone had experience.

Josiah, I've been in the Air Force for 6 1/2 years now. I've been to Kuwait and Iraq. I work in an office. I''ve never has to kill anyone, nor have I been asked to kill anyone. I get to live in Germany now. I get to travel around Europe. I'm getting a free Bachelors degree in Marketing. I enjoy being in the Air Force.

I can't speak about the peace corps. I really have no idea what they do, or what the benefits are.

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by TahoeJeff

Icthus and Epaphras, you have never been in the military, so I don't think you're in any position to give advice on this situation.

So a person who has never been a prostitute, or who has never had premarital sex, is in no position to tell a person not to do those things? SERVING AS A SOLDIER IS A SIN. It means you must render your self and your conscience unto Caesar - whereas our primary allegiance is not to Caesar, it is to Christ! Furthermore, we are told in Scripture that if we see a brother who is going astray, we are to warn them.

I've done nothing wrong.

Icthus, I don't ask for or even want your pity. It means NOTHING to me. Why the hell do you think your pity is so valuable and what makes YOU the authority on honor? You're coming off as a judgemental ass. Just shut up.

I'm sure gays who are living together and having sex think that Christians are 'judgemental' when they call a spade a spade. Notice I never condemned you, however? That's not my place - I don't claim to know your heart. However, if I'm right then serving as a soldier as just as immoral.

I think it's telling that the military people in this thread are starting to feel threatened and 'judged' and starting to get nasty.

For the first 300 years of the Church it was almost universally recognized that serving as a soldier in anything but the sense of Ephesians 6 is incompatible with the Christian calling.

Originally Posted by Hippolytus of Rome, "The Apostolic Tradition", 16, c. 215 AD

A military man in authority must not execute men. If he is ordered, he must not carry it out. Nor must he take military oath. If he refuses, he shall be rejected. If someone is a military governor, or the ruler of a city who wears the purple, he shall cease or he shall be rejected. The catechumen or faithful who wants to become a soldier is to be rejected, for he has despised God. The prostitute, the wanton man, the one who castrates himself, or one who does that which may not be mentioned, are to be rejected, for they are impure. A magus shall not even be brought forward for consideration. An enchanter, or astrologer, or diviner, or interpreter of dreams, or a charlatan, or one who makes amulets, either they shall cease or they shall be rejected. If someone’s concubine is a slave, as long as she has raised her children and has clung only to him, let her hear. Otherwise, she shall be rejected. The man who has a concubine must cease and take a wife according to the law. If he will not, he shall be rejected.

[TahoeJeff]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

So a person who has never been a prostitute, or who has never had premarital sex, is in no position to tell a person not to do those things? SERVING AS A SOLDIER IS A SIN. It means you must render your self and your conscience unto Caesar - whereas our primary allegiance is not to Caesar, it is to Christ! Furthermore, we are told in Scripture that if we see a brother who is going astray, we are to warn them.

I've done nothing wrong.

I'm sure gays who are living together and having sex think that Christians are 'judgemental' when they call a spade a spade. Notice I never condemned you, however? That's not my place - I don't claim to know your heart. However, if I'm right then serving as a soldier as just as immoral.

I think it's telling that the military people in this thread are starting to feel threatened and 'judged' and starting to get nasty.

Icthus, I think that it's telling that you try to twist scripture into your obvious distaste for the military. YOU are not the authority on what is a sin and is what is not a sin. None of your points are valid. You try to make them appear as valid by acting intellectual on subjects that you know absolutely nothing about. You can theorize all you want, but don't come in here proclaiming your beliefs as fact, and acting all holier than thou with me. WHy don't you take the log out of your own eye before you start criticizing what I do.

Take your BS to theology if you want to debate what is a sin and what is not. Josiah asked for advice from people who have actual experience.. Not holier than thou, psuedo intellectuals who sit behind their computer and spout nonsense.

[TahoeJeff]

P.S. Calling a spade a spade is a racist statement.