[AlphaSigma]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I wonder if the failure of the Massachusetts health care system will change anything at all. I doubt it but at the same time I would hope that someone is taking lessons from it.

Mass. healthcare reform is failing us - The Boston Globe

"For middle-income people not qualifying for state-subsidized health insurance, costs are too high for even skimpy coverage. For an individual earning $31,213, the cheapest plan can cost $9,872 in premiums and out-of-pocket payments."

That's insane. Almost 1/3 of your income.

[tlj009]

"For middle-income people not qualifying for state-subsidized health insurance, costs are too high for even skimpy coverage. For an individual earning $31,213, the cheapest plan can cost $9,872 in premiums and out-of-pocket payments."

That's insane. Almost 1/3 of your income.

If you want some more details of the failure.....

http://www.pnhp.org/mass_report/mass_report_Final.pdf

[AlphaSigma]

Originally Posted by tlj009

If you want some more details of the failure.....

http://www.pnhp.org/mass_report/mass_report_Final.pdf

Ok, I'm currently a proponent of Single Payer Health Care, but I also realize the draw-backs of such. What would be ideal for health care reform in the U.S. Granted it will not be a perfect plan; but what would be ideal?

[tlj009]

Ok, I'm currently a proponent of Single Payer Health Care, but I also realize the draw-backs of such. What would be ideal for health care reform in the U.S. Granted it will not be a perfect plan; but what would be ideal?

I don't know what would be ideal. I am not a proponent of the Single Payer Health Care simply because I don't think that the government can keep the people's best interest in mind. It may work on paper but I doubt that it would work in real life. I just have major doubts about nearly anything the government does.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by AlphaSigma

Regardless,
Obama health plan or not: Health Costs are still rising for those who are covered and paying for their own coverage and eventually no one (even those who pay for their own coverage) will be able to afford health care, if something is not changed.

I find it amazing and absolutely stupefying that people can rail against Wal-Mart, Big oil, Big Insurance, Mega banks etc. and yet the two fastest growing expenses in America are due to big Medicine, and Big Education.

I know of Docxtors here in Mass. who have to pay a secretary $30K + a year just to deal with all the fed govt. paperwork. At $100/office visit that doctor needs 350 appointments (don't foprget benefits) just to pay for thye clerical help to do all the medicare and medicaid paperwork.

Its time to tell the govt. to get out of health care. Take the medicare and medicaid taxes and turn it over to the folks and let them buy a health plan. Thats the way we will save money and bring costas down.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Thats the way we will save money and bring costas down.

Your time draweth nigh.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I was talking about crysstal balling and not the CBO-- despite your prediliction to revert to name calling at the first whiff of something you can name call for.

Yes. You used one CBO and dismissed the other. That's hypocrisy. Your calling me a name-caller doesn't change that fact.

Yeah, cause it is federal OWCP== lets privatize it so federal workers don't have to wait months for needed surgeries and even prescriptions.

Which federal employees are you thinking of? Federal healthcare (the federal plan available to federal workers) is consistently rated "above average for the US"

According to the news blogs and websites the more we turn health care over tot he fed- the longer the waits go. Even medicare and medicaid, when there is no private secondary plan, at least in my state has had interminable waits.

Odd you cited no statistics.

Interesting you glossed over the presence of private Medicare and Medicaid.

Telling that you failed to mention that the public plans consistently rate higher than the private ones.

It will become single payor-- or maybe not just like Obama wasn't interested inthe fed owning GM.

You are hacking at straw men.

These are from Obama supporting networks. His plan sucks even to them.

Try making an argument and supporting it. It's a lot more effective (at least with valid arguments) than a mix of unsupported claims, hypocritical dismissal of your own sources, and links to other peoples arguments (for my rebuttal, google supporters of Obama's plan).

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Prrof?

In the house bill-- page 16-17 If you have a health plaN THROUGH WORK, as soon as anything changes in your plan like deductibles or copays- you will be required to move into a governmetn qualified health plan.

Sometimes I don't know why I bother you liar!

http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

Originally Posted by House Bill pg16-17

SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE.
(a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE DEFINED.—Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ‘‘grandfathered health insurance coverage’’ means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:
(1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT.—
(A) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.
(B) DEPENDENT COVERAGE PERMITTED.—Subparagraph (A) shall not affect the subsequent enrollment of a dependent of an individual who is covered as of such first day.
(2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS.—Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day be fore the first day of Y1.

(3) RESTRICTIONS ON PREMIUM INCREASES.— The issuer cannot vary the percentage increase in the premium for a risk group of enrollees in specific grandfathered health insurance coverage without changing the premium for all enrollees in the same risk group at the same rate, as specified by the Commissioner.
(b) GRACE PERIOD FOR CURRENT EMPLOYMENTBASED HEALTH PLANS.—
(1) GRACE PERIOD.—
(A) IN GENERAL.—The Commissioner shall establish a grace period whereby, for plan years beginning after the end of the 5-year period beginning with Y1, an employment-based health plan in operation as of the day before the first day of Y1 must meet the same requirements as apply to a qualified health benefits plan under section 101, including the essential benefit package requirement under section 121.
(B) EXCEPTION FOR LIMITED BENEFITS PLANS.—Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to an employment-based health plan in which the coverage consists only of one or more of the fol24
lowing:

Are you some sort of compulsive liar? Page 16 and 17 don't say sqat about government health plans (the words aren't even mentioned). Both pages describe exemptions to existing health overage from current health care law.

For anyone else's edification, becase noli doesn't care at all about the truth:
The house bill sets requirements that health-care plans must meet in order to be valid. If there is a healthcare plan which does not meet those requirements, but which is already in force when the law goes into effect then the plan is considered valid until the end of its term (up to a year). It is "grandfathered in".

If at any point, the plan changes: it looses its grandfathered status (as it is no longer the grandfathered plan) and so must meet the minimum healthcare requirements (listed somewhere else) in order to be valid.

[Jfool]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Sometimes I don't know why I bother you liar!

http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
Are you some sort of compulsive liar? Page 16 and 17 don't say sqat about government health plans (the words aren't even mentioned). Both pages describe exemptions to existing health overage from current health care law.

For anyone else's edification, becase noli doesn't care at all about the truth:
The house bill sets requirements that health-care plans must meet in order to be valid. If there is a healthcare plan which does not meet those requirements, but which is already in force when the law goes into effect then the plan is considered valid until the end of its term (up to a year). It is "grandfathered in".

If at any point, the plan changes: it looses its grandfathered status (as it is no longer the grandfathered plan) and so must meet the minimum healthcare requirements (listed somewhere else) in order to be valid.

"Up to a year" does not = grandfathering. That's a blink of an eye.

What happens if the gov't determines a plan is not valid?

It's this kind of double speak that most frightens me about gov't legislation. Clear (transparent) as mud.

[tlj009]

"Up to a year" does not = grandfathering. That's a blink of an eye.

What happens if the gov't determines a plan is not valid?

It's this kind of double speak that most frightens me about gov't legislation. Clear (transparent) as mud.

Apparently, if the government determines a plan invalid, you have to choose from one recommended by the Health Insurance Exchange. The bill will create the "Health Insurance Exchange" to basically reside over all insurance companies and plans. If the plan isn't certified by them, then it is invalid. Doing that adds about 5% to the administrative costs of insurance while still allowing them to be private insurance companies that already have extremely high administrative costs.

Again, Massachusetts did the same thing only they called it The Connector.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Yes. You used one CBO and dismissed the other. That's hypocrisy. Your calling me a name-caller doesn't change that fact.

Which federal employees are you thinking of? Federal healthcare (the federal plan available to federal workers) is consistently rated "above average for the US"

Odd you cited no statistics.

Interesting you glossed over the presence of private Medicare and Medicaid.

Telling that you failed to mention that the public plans consistently rate higher than the private ones.

You are hacking at straw men.

Try making an argument and supporting it. It's a lot more effective (at least with valid arguments) than a mix of unsupported claims, hypocritical dismissal of your own sources, and links to other peoples arguments (for my rebuttal, google supporters of Obama's plan).

I did make an argument and support it. I showed from the health plans themselves just how they will take over. Even alot of democrats now are hesitant about the plan over its costs and future costs.

According to the provisions of the plan 88 million curtrent private insurered individuals will be forces in to the public plan.

If you think public insurance on the federal level is consistently rated higher--you have never had to deal with vet-care. Nor do you live in astate that must have long waiting lists like mAss, has.

While the AMA supports Obama care- more and more doctors are speaking out against it as people have been reding this abortion of a legislation.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by Jfool

"Up to a year" does not = grandfathering. That's a blink of an eye.

You've completely failed to understand the purpose of the section, but I don't know why that would surprise me since you LIED about what it said in the first place.

You don't seem to have the slightest idea what is being proposed or what the actual ramifications are; and you don't seem to care. If you did, you would at least occasionally study something before making statements about it.

Or perhaps you do know and it's just inconvenient to be truthful. I'm tired of wasting time and energy that could be put on discussions of reality disproving your dishonesty. Some cases in point:

I did make an argument and support it. I showed from the health plans themselves just how they will take over.

No. You just said they would. That's not showing anything. In fact, you made several claims completely contrary to the statements of every major supporter of the bills (and the bills themselves).

Go on. Say "did too".

According to the provisions of the plan 88 million current private insured individuals will be forces in to the public plan.

You don't have or want even the slightest clue what the provisions are. I proved that well enough with your... mis-characterization implies that your claim resembled the truth, which it didn't... with your bold-faced lie about page 16-17 of the house bill.

How are you gonna back up the new claim? By listing random page numbers or by claiming you already did?

If you think public insurance on the federal level is consistently rated higher--you have never had to deal with vet-care. Nor do you live in astate that must have long waiting lists like mAss, has.

Good point.

Is VetCare Medicare? No.
Is Mass the federal government? No.

What does VetCare and Mass state care have to do with my claim that Federal insurance (federal Medicare and Medicade) perform better than the private Medicare and Medicade plans? Nothing at all.

What about my claim that there are a significant number of countries with public healthcare with longer lives and a lower number of health problems... and at half our costs?

Doesn't relate to that either.

While the AMA supports Obama care- more and more doctors are speaking out against it as people have been reding this abortion of a legislation.

Hells-bells: do you have any idea what subject it is you want to talk about? Is it Obama's plan, the idea of universal healthcare, the current propositions?

No. It just seems some Limbaugh parody and horrible "well this guy I met on the streets dislikes what he was told Russia did so let's just put Aetna in charge".

[Jfool]

Jerry, you need to check your quotes. You're mixing posts. Thanks anyway.

[metropolis4]

I don't want to get too into this, but I have to say I work with children with disabilities and Medicaid is the absolute best health insurance out there for them. We are always excited when a kid has Medicaid because we know it means they will have better and quicker access to therapy and (when necessary) adaptive equipment that kids who have private insurance. It covers so many things that private insurance companies refuse to cover such as therapy for autism and durable medical equipment such as strollers, walkers and gait trainers.

[AlphaSigma]

Originally Posted by slap_j

Your time draweth nigh.