[SupaNova]

Gotta say I'm intrigued by the premise, but doubtful I'll see it any time soon. Nobody I know would probably be excited to go see a film like this one

[DKelly]

Originally Posted by SupaNova

Gotta say I'm intrigued by the premise, but doubtful I'll see it any time soon. Nobody I know would probably be excited to go see a film like this one

So, see it by yourself. Just see it somehow. It is THAT good.

[bowstaff981]

I saw this Christmas day and I must stay: Meh. Just for reference I loved The Wrestler and Requiem for a Dream.

From the start of the film I felt nothing but annoyed by Nina (Natalie Portman). In fact I felt nothing but annoyed by her, her mother, the dance instructor, Beth, and by pretty much every other character except for Mila Kunis's. With no emotional connection to anyone on screen I found that I pretty much didn't care what would happen. All of the characters acted out of these ideals that they held but we were given no insight at all as to why. Throughout the movie not a single person made a single rational decision. I wasn't so much disgusted by some of the gross out scenes, but rather by the idea that such people supposedly exist.

Speaking of those gross out scenes (that I guess were supposed to build suspense), the only time I felt tense was when a dancer went on point because I was scared of seeing somebody's ankle break (I won't tell you if it happened or not). I wasn't afraid that Nina was going to get killed or attacked or eaten by a swan mostly because I was hoping those things would happen so we could move on to less annoying people. Also, they loved the "fake out" in this movie. This is when we see something that's just crazy then realize that it was actually just somebody's imagination. It happened so many times in this film that by the twentieth or so time you just don't care at all anymore.

******** Mild Spoiler that you can probably guess from the trailer anyways******
Ultimately this movie failed because of the translation from Swan Lake the ballet into Nina's real life. We all knew ahead of time (or figured it out very quickly) that the ballet was transferring over into Nina's real life. However, the movie completely lacked the ability to be subtle. By the end of it I felt like I had been beaten over the head with a swan.
******** END*************

tl;dr One dimensional characters, lack of any thrill, and a metaphor so obvious it might as well have been the child kicking the back of your seat.

[MtlMom]

Fantastic! This movie is very creepy, mostly because it is so real. Natalie Portman was brilliant. I can't imagine anyone upstaging her for Best Actress.

[DKelly]

Originally Posted by bowstaff981

I saw this Christmas day and I must stay: Meh. Just for reference I loved The Wrestler and Requiem for a Dream.

From the start of the film I felt nothing but annoyed by Nina (Natalie Portman). In fact I felt nothing but annoyed by her, her mother, the dance instructor, Beth, and by pretty much every other character except for Mila Kunis's. With no emotional connection to anyone on screen I found that I pretty much didn't care what would happen. All of the characters acted out of these ideals that they held but we were given no insight at all as to why. Throughout the movie not a single person made a single rational decision. I wasn't so much disgusted by some of the gross out scenes, but rather by the idea that such people supposedly exist.

Speaking of those gross out scenes (that I guess were supposed to build suspense), the only time I felt tense was when a dancer went on point because I was scared of seeing somebody's ankle break (I won't tell you if it happened or not). I wasn't afraid that Nina was going to get killed or attacked or eaten by a swan mostly because I was hoping those things would happen so we could move on to less annoying people. Also, they loved the "fake out" in this movie. This is when we see something that's just crazy then realize that it was actually just somebody's imagination. It happened so many times in this film that by the twentieth or so time you just don't care at all anymore.

******** Mild Spoiler that you can probably guess from the trailer anyways******
Ultimately this movie failed because of the translation from Swan Lake the ballet into Nina's real life. We all knew ahead of time (or figured it out very quickly) that the ballet was transferring over into Nina's real life. However, the movie completely lacked the ability to be subtle. By the end of it I felt like I had been beaten over the head with a swan.
******** END*************

tl;dr One dimensional characters, lack of any thrill, and a metaphor so obvious it might as well have been the child kicking the back of your seat.

***SPOILERS***

I won't argue with a lot of your points because a good number of them, like the supposed lack of any thrill and not caring for any of the characters (I felt for Portman's character through a number of scenes, particuarly the scene where she calls her mom to tell her she got the part, which was not only a very well-acted scene on Portman's part, but, really, how can you not feel overjoyed for her based on her behavior in that scene), are subjective (and, IMO, debating subjective opinions gets no one anywhere), but I will say that the characters are not as simply one-dimensional as you describe (especially not the character of Nina). OK, there are a few that are more like that than others (Barbara Hershey's character in particular is very much the essence of a creepy over-bearing mother), but I think that, considering that the film was told from Nina's point of view, any lack of dimension with the characters can be traced to the fact that depending on how stressed and out of her mind Nina may have been, she may have not had the discernment to see others in anything other than stereotypes.

For instance, Lily was portrayed as a character who wasn't worried about being absolute perfection like Nina was and had no limits for herself, but we come to find out towards the end of the film that she may not have been as extreme in that direction as certain scenes implied. The way I see it, Nina was just subconsciously projecting the image of the Black Swan onto her, causing herself to succomb even further to the role and driving herself further and further toward madness.

[bowstaff981]

Originally Posted by DKelly

***SPOILERS***

I won't argue with a lot of your points because a good number of them, like the supposed lack of any thrill and not caring for any of the characters (I felt for Portman's character through a number of scenes, particuarly the scene where she calls her mom to tell her she got the part, which was not only a very well-acted scene on Portman's part, but, really, how can you not feel overjoyed for her based on her behavior in that scene), are subjective (and, IMO, debating subjective opinions gets no one anywhere), but I will say that the characters are not as simply one-dimensional as you describe (especially not the character of Nina). OK, there are a few that are more like that than others (Barbara Hershey's character in particular is very much the essence of a creepy over-bearing mother), but I think that, considering that the film was told from Nina's point of view, any lack of dimension with the characters can be traced to the fact that depending on how stressed and out of her mind Nina may have been, she may have not had the discernment to see others in anything other than stereotypes.

For instance, Lily was portrayed as a character who wasn't worried about being absolute perfection like Nina was and had no limits for herself, but we come to find out towards the end of the film that she may not have been as extreme in that direction as certain scenes implied. The way I see it, Nina was just subconsciously projecting the image of the Black Swan onto her, causing herself to succomb even further to the role and driving herself further and further toward madness.

***********Spoilers************

I see your points and agree that subjectivity cannot be argued. However, I would like to point out some of the flaws in Nina's character for me by comparing her to Randy "The Ram" from the Wrestler. Obviously everything I say here is my opinion even when stated as fact. I'm not saying I'm ultimately right and you're ultimately wrong (although you're obviously wrong ).

To me a good film has a main character that is defined by their flaws and their ideals. Their ideals give them something to strive for and their flaws create conflict. The amount of conflict that is created and the degree of realistic emotion and relatable-ness makes the difference between a good and bad character.

Randy's flaw was a complex issue that's hard to put to words. It would sound something like "broken old man", but doesn't really do him justice. I would say his flaw is part "not wanting to give up", part "maturing too late in life" and part "getting past his prime". Those mix together to create the tragic man that he is. The film shines of course because we learn this through his actions. He doesn't give up wrestling despite heart problems, he realizes the importance of his daughter too late in life and still can't let go of his childish habits, and his age is shown through his health problems and other old people things. Randy is a man trying to succeed at something that he really really loves, and we cheer him on. Why do we cheer him on though? He's not really a good person, we see him sabotage his relationship with his daughter, do cocaine, and have sex with a complete stranger. But we cheer for him because most people can relate. At some point I think we have all wanted something in life so bad and failed, but that doesn't stop us from wanting. So we want to at least see Randy succeed. To summarize, Randy's flaw is a combination of elements that are relatable to the audience.

Now for Nina. I would say that Nina's flaw is her strive for perfection. Yes she scratches herself at night and can't dance the black swan like she's supposed to, but those aren't the flaws that are driving the story. Much like the Wrestler we realize her flaw through her actions as she practices into hurting herself and constantly imagines herself with flaws that do not exist. However, her flaw isn't relatable to most people. Sure there are some things that I have to have perfect, but nothing to the point of killing myself over. And I believe that most people feel the same way. So to summarize, Nina's flaw is her strive to perfect everything, which isn't very relatable.

Randy's ideal is to wrestle in front of a huge crowd and have them all love him and cheer him on. Throughout the film we also see his desire to repair his relationship with his daughter, as well as start a relationship with Cassidy, but the driving point is his desire to wrestle. At the end of the film Randy ends up acting purely out of his ideals. He decides to wrestle in spite of the likelihood of death. However, we see Randy attempt to give up his ideals through his actions. He stops wrestling, works more at the grocery store, etc. But ultimately this fails him so he returns to his ideals. Throughout the film he has driving forces that differ from his ideals and he follows them. This helps make him realistic because most people don't set their sights on their ideals and do anything to achieve them.

Nina's ideal is a bit more complex than Randy's actually. It's a mixture of wanting to please her mother, achieve perfection, and please the dance instructor/crowd. We know throughout the film that she practices a lot and wants to do everything perfect. This ends up leading her to work against her mother, which creates some manageable and relatable character tension. I think that most people have felt this rebellion towards parents. Her perfectionism also causes her to, as you said, project the black swan onto Lily (I would say she also projects the swan onto other characters as well, but definitely mostly Lily). This isn't relatable though and this, I believe, is supposed to be the inner conflict that drives the film. In the end she ends up killing herself, but for what? Because she danced perfectly? That's not nearly as realistic as Randy's choice (although both of them essentially chose suicide). What makes her do this? The film appears to say because she achieved what she wanted to and....she thought that was as good as life could get? The film never really says so we are left wondering. But all the answers I thought up were just as un-relatable as the next. Randy clearly chooses his ending because he's tried and failed at life without his ideal.

Now then, I would like to take this and use it to factor in how "dimensional" each character was. When I say "dimensional" I essentially mean complex. So then, both characters had goals in their film. Randy wanted to reboot his stardom, continue wrestling beyond his surgery, get together with Cassidy, and become a father again to his daughter. He has more than a few things working against him. He can't reboot his stardom because he's old, he can't wrestle because his health is deteriorating, Cassidy and him won't get together because she's a stripper and he's a client, and his mistakes in his past and the present make it impossible to reconnect with his daughter. All these forces are constantly at work throughout the film. These cause us to see Randy the good dad, Randy the bad dad, Randy the guy who thinks the stripper likes him, Randy the respected wrestler, Randy the disrespected wrestler, Randy the old man, Randy the poor man, and every Randy in between. This is what makes him such a complex and multi dimensional character. Nina also has goals in her film. She wants to get her mother's approval, break free from her mother (does she really or does she only do this because she's trying to personify the black swan?), dance the swan queen, and gain the instructor's approval. She also has forces working against her (mostly internal), her mother works against her, and Nina is insane. So what part of Nina do we get to see? We see Nina the prissy dancer, Nina the small child, Nina the rebel, Nina the masturbator, and a whole lot of Nina the girl with tears in her eyes. In fact mostly we see Nina the girl with tears in her eyes. I'd say that's probably 90% of the film. And that is what makes her one dimensional.

To summarize, Randy has a relatable flaw and ideal, makes realistic decisions that we as the audience can perceive and understand, and ends up showing us a lot of different emotions and sides of himself. Nina on the other hand has an un-relatable flaw and ideal, makes unrealistic crazy decisions that the audience cannot understand, and ends up showing us one emotion with mere glimpses of others. This is what made the film fail for me as far as Nina is concerned.

Yipes this was long.

[DKelly]

Originally Posted by bowstaff981

***********Spoilers************

I see your points and agree that subjectivity cannot be argued. However, I would like to point out some of the flaws in Nina's character for me by comparing her to Randy "The Ram" from the Wrestler. Obviously everything I say here is my opinion even when stated as fact. I'm not saying I'm ultimately right and you're ultimately wrong (although you're obviously wrong ).

To me a good film has a main character that is defined by their flaws and their ideals. Their ideals give them something to strive for and their flaws create conflict. The amount of conflict that is created and the degree of realistic emotion and relatable-ness makes the difference between a good and bad character.

Randy's flaw was a complex issue that's hard to put to words. It would sound something like "broken old man", but doesn't really do him justice. I would say his flaw is part "not wanting to give up", part "maturing too late in life" and part "getting past his prime". Those mix together to create the tragic man that he is. The film shines of course because we learn this through his actions. He doesn't give up wrestling despite heart problems, he realizes the importance of his daughter too late in life and still can't let go of his childish habits, and his age is shown through his health problems and other old people things. Randy is a man trying to succeed at something that he really really loves, and we cheer him on. Why do we cheer him on though? He's not really a good person, we see him sabotage his relationship with his daughter, do cocaine, and have sex with a complete stranger. But we cheer for him because most people can relate. At some point I think we have all wanted something in life so bad and failed, but that doesn't stop us from wanting. So we want to at least see Randy succeed. To summarize, Randy's flaw is a combination of elements that are relatable to the audience.

Now for Nina. I would say that Nina's flaw is her strive for perfection. Yes she scratches herself at night and can't dance the black swan like she's supposed to, but those aren't the flaws that are driving the story. Much like the Wrestler we realize her flaw through her actions as she practices into hurting herself and constantly imagines herself with flaws that do not exist. However, her flaw isn't relatable to most people. Sure there are some things that I have to have perfect, but nothing to the point of killing myself over. And I believe that most people feel the same way. So to summarize, Nina's flaw is her strive to perfect everything, which isn't very relatable.

Randy's ideal is to wrestle in front of a huge crowd and have them all love him and cheer him on. Throughout the film we also see his desire to repair his relationship with his daughter, as well as start a relationship with Cassidy, but the driving point is his desire to wrestle. At the end of the film Randy ends up acting purely out of his ideals. He decides to wrestle in spite of the likelihood of death. However, we see Randy attempt to give up his ideals through his actions. He stops wrestling, works more at the grocery store, etc. But ultimately this fails him so he returns to his ideals. Throughout the film he has driving forces that differ from his ideals and he follows them. This helps make him realistic because most people don't set their sights on their ideals and do anything to achieve them.

Nina's ideal is a bit more complex than Randy's actually. It's a mixture of wanting to please her mother, achieve perfection, and please the dance instructor/crowd. We know throughout the film that she practices a lot and wants to do everything perfect. This ends up leading her to work against her mother, which creates some manageable and relatable character tension. I think that most people have felt this rebellion towards parents. Her perfectionism also causes her to, as you said, project the black swan onto Lily (I would say she also projects the swan onto other characters as well, but definitely mostly Lily). This isn't relatable though and this, I believe, is supposed to be the inner conflict that drives the film. In the end she ends up killing herself, but for what? Because she danced perfectly? That's not nearly as realistic as Randy's choice (although both of them essentially chose suicide). What makes her do this? The film appears to say because she achieved what she wanted to and....she thought that was as good as life could get? The film never really says so we are left wondering. But all the answers I thought up were just as un-relatable as the next. Randy clearly chooses his ending because he's tried and failed at life without his ideal.

Now then, I would like to take this and use it to factor in how "dimensional" each character was. When I say "dimensional" I essentially mean complex. So then, both characters had goals in their film. Randy wanted to reboot his stardom, continue wrestling beyond his surgery, get together with Cassidy, and become a father again to his daughter. He has more than a few things working against him. He can't reboot his stardom because he's old, he can't wrestle because his health is deteriorating, Cassidy and him won't get together because she's a stripper and he's a client, and his mistakes in his past and the present make it impossible to reconnect with his daughter. All these forces are constantly at work throughout the film. These cause us to see Randy the good dad, Randy the bad dad, Randy the guy who thinks the stripper likes him, Randy the respected wrestler, Randy the disrespected wrestler, Randy the old man, Randy the poor man, and every Randy in between. This is what makes him such a complex and multi dimensional character. Nina also has goals in her film. She wants to get her mother's approval, break free from her mother (does she really or does she only do this because she's trying to personify the black swan?), dance the swan queen, and gain the instructor's approval. She also has forces working against her (mostly internal), her mother works against her, and Nina is insane. So what part of Nina do we get to see? We see Nina the prissy dancer, Nina the small child, Nina the rebel, Nina the masturbator, and a whole lot of Nina the girl with tears in her eyes. In fact mostly we see Nina the girl with tears in her eyes. I'd say that's probably 90% of the film. And that is what makes her one dimensional.

To summarize, Randy has a relatable flaw and ideal, makes realistic decisions that we as the audience can perceive and understand, and ends up showing us a lot of different emotions and sides of himself. Nina on the other hand has an un-relatable flaw and ideal, makes unrealistic crazy decisions that the audience cannot understand, and ends up showing us one emotion with mere glimpses of others. This is what made the film fail for me as far as Nina is concerned.

Yipes this was long.

***POSSIBLE SPOILERS***

I'm not gonna be able to come up with a response for everything that you mentioned, because I'm trying to relax my brain from having just gotten of work but I'm gonna tackle certain parts of your argument.

I won't disagree with you in the belief that Randy was a more relatable character. I personally related to him more than I do with Nina (the feeling of wanting to do right by people and just be happy, but always seems to come up short and screw things up is a feeling I have felt at certain points in my life as well). But I think the reason for that is because that's how Aronofsky and Rourke wanted us to react to the character. It was a more realistic story that dealt with a character that wasn't going through mind-bending delusions, stress and insanity: he was simply dealing with getting older and realizing that the wear and tear wrestling was leaving on him was gonna leave him in big trouble physically, but learning that wrestling was the only thing he wasn't a screw-up with.

With Black Swan, I feel like Aronofsky and Portman were going more in the direction of something like a violent car crash: it's horrible and destructive (both Nina's pursuit for perfection and the attempt to become the Black Swan as well as her psychological and mental breakdown in the latter half of the film), but it's hard to look away from it because there's just something magnetic about it. But, yet again, that's a subjective argument (so hard to break away from those things, but I do think subjectivity makes up a large part of our opinions on things).

I do think, though, if you're going to make complaints about the characters and their lack of dimension in Black Swan, then you'd have to do the same for Requiem For a Dream. Now, granted, it's been a while since I've seen RFAD, but I don't remember the characters, aside from Ellen Burstyn's character, being all that complex and dimensional in comparison to Randy (in fact, as good as her performance in The Wrestler is, I'd say Evan Rachel Wood's character is a bit less dimensional than Randy or Cassidy). Not only that, but outside of The Wrestler, Aronofsky hasn't always been about subtlety. RFAD didn't use a whole lot of subtlety in it's message: the sentiment that addiction can kill dreams and hope for a better life was basically delivered by Aronofsky like a kick to the head.

[bowstaff981]

Originally Posted by DKelly

***POSSIBLE SPOILERS***

With Black Swan, I feel like Aronofsky and Portman were going more in the direction of something like a violent car crash: it's horrible and destructive (both Nina's pursuit for perfection and the attempt to become the Black Swan as well as her psychological and mental breakdown in the latter half of the film), but it's hard to look away from it because there's just something magnetic about it. But, yet again, that's a subjective argument (so hard to break away from those things, but I do think subjectivity makes up a large part of our opinions on things).

****** SPOILERS For Multiple Movies********

I think this is the core of our diference of opinions. I agree that Requiem is very similar to Black Swan as far as the characters go. I guess then that I didn't like Black Swan because of the style. I rarely find the "everything is in their imagination" ploy entertaining. I think that Fight Club is the only film I've seen that I thought used it well. This, The Illusionist, American Psycho, Shutter Island, etc all were ruined by this IMO. Of course Black Swan used the trick in a more scene by scene basis as opposed to a whole movie basis, but I didn't find it very intriguing either. So we'll leave it to subjectivity and personal preferences.

[DKelly]

Originally Posted by bowstaff981

****** SPOILERS For Multiple Movies********

I think this is the core of our diference of opinions. I agree that Requiem is very similar to Black Swan as far as the characters go. I guess then that I didn't like Black Swan because of the style. I rarely find the "everything is in their imagination" ploy entertaining. I think that Fight Club is the only film I've seen that I thought used it well. This, The Illusionist, American Psycho, Shutter Island, etc all were ruined by this IMO. Of course Black Swan used the trick in a more scene by scene basis as opposed to a whole movie basis, but I didn't find it very intriguing either. So we'll leave it to subjectivity and personal preferences.

Yep, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Than]

I'm hopefully going to see this New Year's Day. I'm pumped - everything I've heard/read about it so far has been glowing. I can't stand Requiem for a Dream, but I like his other movies quite a bit.

Could this be Aronofsky's swan song?!?! (Kill me).

[DKelly]

Originally Posted by Than

I'm hopefully going to see this New Year's Day. I'm pumped - everything I've heard/read about it so far has been glowing. I can't stand Requiem for a Dream, but I like his other movies quite a bit.

Could this be Aronofsky's swan song?!?! (Kill me).

There are definitely elements of Requiem For a Dream in Black Swan, but I personally think there are elements of each of Aronofsky's previous films that make up Black Swan.

[bread man]

Originally Posted by Than

I can't stand Requiem for a Dream, but I like his other movies quite a bit.

Me too! I'm looking forward to this a lot. I think we have two weeks until it comes out here though.

[corporate]

Good film. Natalie Portman is alright.

Originally Posted by MtlMom

I can't imagine anyone upstaging her for Best Actress.

Well, Jennifer Lawrence in Winter's Bone, Isabelle Huppert in White Material, Michelle Williams in Blue Valentine. But if the awards actually went to those who deserved it, Noomi Rapace will win for GWTDT. Not a fitter actress, is there?