[mulletman]

Tim, we need audio/video of this thing.

[Tim Possible]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

Nice score ! I prefer a P90 in the neck on LP's, that and a PAF in the bridge is probably my favorite combination.

Is that a single piece maple neck...? I thought Gibby used 3 piece maple necks from the mid 70's to '83 or so... The maple + mahog body give it a different tone than yer usual LP, spankier, brighter. Kinda like a love child of a LP and a tele. I have an old MIJ LP copy, bolt on 3 pc. maple neck, mahog body with chambered top (no maple cap) - I love the tone of that thing.

I do agree with Bill as far as the aesthetics, if you were inclined to change anything on a vintage ax - a double creme coil pickup in the bridge would be perfect.

I love the P90/Hum combo as well. I had a BFG for a while that I really loved. I like this one even more.

It is a 3 piece, I just took a close look at it. This thing is definitely a love child, but in ways that are perfect for me. I love maple necks, and I especially love hefty guitars. That is one reason I ultimately got rid of the BFG, just too light for me.

Originally Posted by guyskankrye

Nice! Is this the one you traded the Desert Burst for?

Yes it is. I actually traded the Desert Burst and a DMM for it. I still feel like I got my moneys worth.

Originally Posted by Forged by Fire

cool guitar, but wow those frets are flat I'd be worried about fret intonation. It would be sacriledge to the cork sniffing collectors but first thing I would do is get those frets replaced ASAP. I mean you might not notice it now, but once you get into the studio, oh man...

Otherwise cool score, its in awesome shape for its age really.

It's already been molested with the humbucker route in the bridge. Which is why I got it for such a good price. I am not a studio player, when the frets start causing issues, I will get it fixed.

Originally Posted by The Phantom Mullet

Tim, we need audio/video of this thing.

Working on it.....

[Tim Possible]

Video, and audio.

Recorded using my laptop's mic, sorry. A good mic and interface are on my list........

[cheyguy426]

Sounds thick n' creamyyyy beautiful man

[AudioAUnderdog]

Sounds great! Is that P-90 original to the guitar? And the BFG worked out great for me (being short and weak, the lighter the guitar the better lol).

Glad you found one you like.

[Forged by Fire]

Originally Posted by Billgamesh

my '77 has low frets and sense there is a lower possible action, it stands to reason that your intonation is possible to get more accurate sense you are dealing with less of an angle while fretted, thus the distance remains truer.

Not at all. The heigth of the fret has nothing to with intonation accuracy, unless your pulling the strings sharp by applying to much pressure. Rather its the broadening of the fret that causes problems because the point of contact will be moved ever so slightly closer to the bridge. Whereas the point of on contact on a properly crowned fret is much closer to the middle. Im not sure I get exactly what you mean but higher frets should have not angle the strings if proper pressure is applied. One can even have great intonation with scalloped frets but the players must use a lighter grip force.

My flat fretted guit is actually supposedly on quite a few records as I have found out bits and pieces of its history, as one of my classmates bought it in high school from a touring musician. He described the severe ding he put on it, that is still there without seeing it.

How much the effect of flat frets effect recording is dependent on several factors. Such as the severity of the fret wear and how much the song is dependent on cross intonation. For instance a raw punk band using 3 open chords will not notice it the way say a jazz musician using extended voicings up and down the length of the neck will.

Larger frets allow for you to pull it a bit sharp.

You can pull strings sharp on almost all frets if you press hard enough. Look at chapman stick players. They have huge frets but there intonation is typically immaculate because they only use the force necessary to depress the strings to the frets. Frets of any heigth are possible to play one just needs to apply only the appropriate grip force.

How if the frets need dressing and a recrown, that could cause problems, but usually on a lesser order than a guitar without a compensated nut fresh off the line with a perfect setup.

As I said, if theyre flat it moves the contact point closer to the bridge. Most of the time it as you said, doesnt make a highly noticeable difference. However the studio especially when using extended voicing chords and a large amount of the fretboard in one song it can definately can become a pain especially when multitracking and layering chords. Then you have a guitar that has unevenly flat frets from playing wear which can be much worse. So in that case I would definately reccomend considering a refret job. Depending on the uneveness of the wear it can definately be muchworse than the difference a compensated nut can make. Compensated nuts are great though and I would definately defile a classic guitar to install one

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Forged by Fire

Not at all. The heigth of the fret has nothing to with intonation accuracy, unless your pulling the strings sharp by applying to much pressure. Rather its the broadening of the fret that causes problems because the point of contact will be moved ever so slightly closer to the bridge. Whereas the point of on contact on a properly crowned fret is much closer to the middle. Im not sure I get exactly what you mean but higher frets should have not angle the strings if proper pressure is applied. One can even have great intonation with scalloped frets but the players must use a lighter grip force.

Most players push string to wood. They shouldn't, but they do. Meaning, the higher the action, the greater distance the open string stretches on its way down to the wood from the nut and the bridge. Meaning, for your average player, the close worn fret with really low action can be pulled less sharp than the higher fret in typical playing.

How much the effect of flat frets effect recording is dependent on several factors. Such as the severity of the fret wear and how much the song is dependent on cross intonation. For instance a raw punk band using 3 open chords will not notice it the way say a jazz musician using extended voicings up and down the length of the neck will.

My '77 has quite flat frets, light strings and intonation that stays within 3 cents played with a light touch. I know, I have measured. IIRC, without a compensated nut, normal deviation is within 4 cents based on placement alone, meaning that for my LP, without a compensated nut, it is inconsequential.

You can pull strings sharp on almost all frets if you press hard enough. Look at chapman stick players. They have huge frets but there intonation is typically immaculate because they only use the force necessary to depress the strings to the frets. Frets of any heigth are possible to play one just needs to apply only the appropriate grip force.

Yes, and most guitarists take strings to where their fingers touch wood. Should they? Ideally, probably not, but to reduce fatigue, most guys do.

As I said, if theyre flat it moves the contact point closer to the bridge. Most of the time it as you said, doesnt make a highly noticeable difference. However the studio especially when using extended voicing chords and a large amount of the fretboard in one song it can definately can become a pain especially when multitracking and layering chords. Then you have a guitar that has unevenly flat frets from playing wear which can be much worse. So in that case I would definately reccomend considering a refret job. Depending on the uneveness of the wear it can definately be muchworse than the difference a compensated nut can make. Compensated nuts are great though and I would definately defile a classic guitar to install one

My flat fretted guitar was owned by amongst others, a blues outfit last, a country artist, and spent its first few years of life in the punk scene. The wear is VERY even, and the deviation is within an acceptable range. And a refret job to correct that would not be a good idea most likely. Recrowning would be a far less drastic procedure and would correct the problem and keep the old feel.

I like the old comfy feel. As it seems to be within a compensated nut's correction point it is no big deal.

[Forged by Fire]

Originally Posted by Billgamesh

Most players push string to wood. They shouldn't, but they do. Meaning, the higher the action, the greater distance the open string stretches on its way down to the wood from the nut and the bridge. Meaning, for your average player, the close worn fret with really low action can be pulled less sharp than the higher fret in typical playing.

Ive only really seen that with early beginners. Most guitarist quickly learn that its the fret that creates the note not contact to the wood. I dont see the average player having this problem.

My '77 has quite flat frets, light strings and intonation that stays within 3 cents played with a light touch. I know, I have measured. IIRC, without a compensated nut, normal deviation is within 4 cents based on placement alone, meaning that for my LP, without a compensated nut, it is inconsequential.

Well you wont notice it with bridge intonation. Im talking about cross string - fret to fret intonation and as I said the severity is dependent upon the wear pattern. Though typically the flatter the fret the further the contact point of the fret will be moved sharp.

Yes, and most guitarists take strings to where their fingers touch wood. Should they? Ideally, probably not, but to reduce fatigue, most guys do.

Personally I cant imagine what type of fatigue wrestling the strings down to the fretboard would alleviate. I only see this kind of string wrestling prevalent in early learners.

My flat fretted guitar was owned by amongst others, a blues outfit last, a country artist, and spent its first few years of life in the punk scene. The wear is VERY even, and the deviation is within an acceptable range. And a refret job to correct that would not be a good idea most likely. Recrowning would be a far less drastic procedure and would correct the problem and keep the old feel.

Providing there was enough fret left there to recrown sure. However with the OP's guitar from the pictures I would have a hard time imagining how much of a proper bevel you could put on those frets.

If the wear on your guitar is fairly even it will be less noticeable. If there is enough fret left to be properly recrowned then sure it will be fine. Its about how broad the fret is not how small it is. When you recrown its going to change the feel of the fret regardless the only big difference is that the frets will be smaller than when it was new. So I dont know how that would preserve the "worn in" feel but you know.....whatever flips your flapjacks.

I like the old comfy feel. As it seems to be within a compensated nut's correction point it is no big deal.

On each string it may be within that margin but again im talking about crossfret - crosstring intonation not bridge intonation alone. If its working for you fine, but in certain situations especially with extended chord intensive music it can wreak havoc. So I would still reccomend for guitars with frets as flat as the OP's. Besides regardless of the margin of intonation inaccuracy frets flattened by wear will never be as inherently accurate as frets with a proper crown and for someone who wants the most out of there instroment even these smaller issues matter.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Forged by Fire

Ive only really seen that with early beginners. Most guitarist quickly learn that its the fret that creates the note not contact to the wood. I dont see the average player having this problem.

Yet most guys go till they touch wood. Most pros do as well. It is why in large part full scalloping is not more popular. Even the guys who go half scalloped often go to wood on say, open chords. I know most of the guys I have ever played with, (including some very longstanding studio guys in jazz) tend to do that. Its a natural tendency. I fought it, by using light strings that go sharp easily to get in the habit of using only sufficient tension. (I have nerve damage in my left hand, so I can't necessarily always feel how hard I press on my index and middle finger. My ring and pinky are a complete guess) However, fear of carpal tunnel caused by excessive pressure motivated me to combat that. But most guys never feel the need to as long as they don't pull the note too sharp.

Well you wont notice it with bridge intonation. Im talking about cross string - fret to fret intonation and as I said the severity is dependent upon the wear pattern. Though typically the flatter the fret the further the contact point of the fret will be moved sharp.

I do not know what you mean by bridge intonation. I am speaking of absolute intonation of the note at any fret, never exceeds 3 cents. This is actually slightly better than some uncompensated guitars at intonation from string to string at maximum accuracy, meaning the intonation is really functionally not being effected.

Personally I cant imagine what type of fatigue wrestling the strings down to the fretboard would alleviate. I only see this kind of string wrestling prevalent in early learners.

overpressure is easier than holding a pressure that is just sufficient. Not ideal, but allows for much more comfortable chord playing for many folks. It allows anchoring.

Providing there was enough fret left there to recrown sure. However with the OP's guitar from the pictures I would have a hard time imagining how much of a proper bevel you could put on those frets.

No problem at all. You change the angle of the bevel a bit, but that would not even be close to a problem. Ever seen an old mandolin fret? or a 1920's classical? Much lower frets than that.

If the wear on your guitar is fairly even it will be less noticeable. If there is enough fret left to be properly recrowned then sure it will be fine. Its about how broad the fret is not how small it is. When you recrown its going to change the feel of the fret regardless the only big difference is that the frets will be smaller than when it was new. So I dont know how that would preserve the "worn in" feel but you know.....whatever flips your flapjacks.

The feel of an old, low fret is very different and much more broken in feeling, even after a recrown than a newer, higher fret. I generally prefer medium frets for the light low action you can acheive. Also, if you round them and roll the fret edge like natural wear it provides for a silky smooth playing experience.

On each string it may be within that margin but again im talking about crossfret - crosstring intonation not bridge intonation alone. If its working for you fine, but in certain situations especially with extended chord intensive music it can wreak havoc. So I would still reccomend for guitars with frets as flat as the OP's. Besides regardless of the margin of intonation inaccuracy frets flattened by wear will never be as inherently accurate as frets with a proper crown and for someone who wants the most out of there instroment even these smaller issues matter.

Actually, if the margin of error is small, the sum will be the same whether the instrument has flat frets or not. Its all about the fret's forward edge that is the final part dividing the string length. Its all about where the fret touches the string. And you can get the most out of an instrument regardless of the frets height, as long as it provides a reasonable margin of error on the note. (and everything has a margin of error, even the most expensive fanned fret, compensated instrument with a near perfect tune up.

[Forged by Fire]

Originally Posted by Billgamesh

Yet most guys go till they touch wood. Most pros do as well. It is why in large part full scalloping is not more popular.

Well if they do, theyre going to be pulling it sharp to some degree. Scalloping is about as popular as ever. I know quite a few luthiers that making a living on scallop jobs alone and the malmsteen sig still sells quite well. Then there are the sales of frets like the dulop 6000's and 6100's which are essentially scallop like. Not to mention touchstyle frets which are growing in popularity.

Even the guys who go half scalloped often go to wood on say, open chords.

Well yeah its possible to pull sharp on the lower scallops if your not paying attention but thats possible with most frets on the medium and larger side to some degree without a scallop. Usually the half scallop is more for finger anchoring for open chords as your fingers tend to be more horizontal when you play open chords. At least thats the way it is for the handfull of guys I met using blackmore style scallops or 12-24 scallops.

I know most of the guys I have ever played with, (including some very longstanding studio guys in jazz) tend to do that. Its a natural tendency.

Ive been around a few studio guys myself and Ive seen it rarely. In fact with some of the heavier guages and higher tensions Ive seen some jazzers use its just about impossible to bring the string down to the wood especially on the larger strings when you get past the 10th fret and its not very easy or convenient to do it on the other frets even the first position. Throw larger frets in there and you can just forget it.

I fought it, by using light strings that go sharp easily to get in the habit of using only sufficient tension. (I have nerve damage in my left hand, so I can't necessarily always feel how hard I press on my index and middle finger. My ring and pinky are a complete guess) However, fear of carpal tunnel caused by excessive pressure motivated me to combat that. But most guys never feel the need to as long as they don't pull the note too sharp.

Typically if your touching the wood your pulling the note sharp to some degree unless your using tiny frets. Ill be praying for your hand man, thats gotta be frustrating. Some older students Ive worked with have had debilitating problems like that because of IMO excessively large string gauges high tension and IMO bad habits like pulling the string to tight and touching the FB. With lessons in proper grip force, hand relaxation, stretching, proper breaks and a change in string gauge and tension. I had students who made great improvements with their CT and Tendonitis. Even the king of huge gauges SRV himself had to calm his gauge sizes down. I understand the dark compression and warmness that comes from larger gauges but you have to consider the health of your hands to.

I do not know what you mean by bridge intonation. I am speaking of absolute intonation of the note at any fret, never exceeds 3 cents.

Well typically most guitarist only check intonation across the frets of one string at a time. Rather than inter-string, inter-fret intonation.

This is actually slightly better than some uncompensated guitars at intonation from string to string at maximum accuracy, meaning the intonation is really functionally not being effected.

Well I dont know about your instrument without handeling it for myself but most fret wear I have seen does not lend itself to accurate inter-string intonation. A flattened fret moves the contact point sharp. How much depends on the flattening of the fret, how uneven the wear, and the breadth of the fret. If yours havent been moved sharp enough to effect your applications then great. However with the OP's case from what I can see in the pics his guitar will have notes that are moved slightly sharp and quite possibly noticeable in studio applications such as chord layering, especially when layering with other guitars with more accurate intonation.

overpressure is easier than holding a pressure that is just sufficient. Not ideal, but allows for much more comfortable chord playing for many folks. It allows anchoring.

You can anchor to the side of the string, pushing it to the wood is never necessary and as we spoke about earlier excessive grip force can lead to problems such as tendonitis and playing fatigue. Fretboard anchoring is not really necessary at all though, IE Eric Johnson.

No problem at all. You change the angle of the bevel a bit, but that would not even be close to a problem. Ever seen an old mandolin fret? or a 1920's classical? Much lower frets than that.

Well when the frets are made to be that small Its a whole different animal. Typically those frets are much thinner as well. Theoretically you can recrown any fret if at least is still above the fretboard but man would that be a pain. Ill have to pass the op's guitar by a luthier friend and see if he would attempt that.

The feel of an old, low fret is very different and much more broken in feeling, even after a recrown than a newer, higher fret. I generally prefer medium frets for the light low action you can acheive. Also, if you round them and roll the fret edge like natural wear it provides for a silky smooth playing experience.

Its one thing to have rounded frets and a whole other animal when you have wear flattened frets. The size of your frets have nothing to with the action. You can have D6000's with a scallop and have the action right on top of the frets without buzzing so long as you have well and evenly crowned frets, a straight neck and a nut that filed and fit properly. What is "silky smooth" is subjective. For me the less I touch the fretboard causing finger friction with properly crowned frets from a attentive luthiers hands, the smoother the playing is to me but that of course is my personal opinion. What is "smooth" is different for every player.

Actually, if the margin of error is small, the sum will be the same whether the instrument has flat frets or not.

I have a peterson tuner that will disagree with you on that one and again its not the flattening alone, it is the uneveness of wear and the breadth of the fret after flattening. If your fret contact point is moved sharp on all your frets you may have some success intonating it with itself fret to fret, but when your layering with other instruments its going to come to the fore. A sharp fret is a sharp fret. The margin of error may be small when intonating an individual string but it adds up with interstring intonation. Again I dont know about your paticular instrument but with many older instruments with flattened frets ive came across the margin or error as you call it, is enough to make some studio applications less than easy when you have to retune for certain songs and you have to play with other better intonated instruments.

Its all about the fret's forward edge that is the final part dividing the string length. Its all about where the fret touches the string. And you can get the most out of an instrument regardless of the frets height, as long as it provides a reasonable margin of error on the note. (and everything has a margin of error, even the most expensive fanned fret, compensated instrument with a near perfect tune up.

Your right fret heigth has nothing to do with it. Its as you say where the contact edge is and with older instruments with fret flattening that contact edge is moved sharp and typically its moved unevenly sharp from fret to fret. Due to that such an instrument, no matter what your acceptable "margin of error" is, will not be as well intonated as an instrument with a proper crown on the fret. Many times and I have verified it with a peterson it is enough to put the instrument out of tune by enough cents with other better intonated instruments to make it inconvenient at best and frustrating at worst. Depending on the application this amount or error may not be noticeable but many times with instrument interplay and chord layering, especially when the ailing instrument is layering fretted chords with open chords it can definately be less than ideal. Thank the Lord for pitch correcting software IF your instrument works for you great! but ive seem the problems of worn down / worn out frets with my own eyes, I know it happens