[Novan_Leon]

Very interesting discussion.

Let me elaborate a little more on it means to "pursue" someone. In my mind there are three different levels of involvement here:

1. Thinking about him/her romantically and/or being enamored with him/her in your heart.
2. Confessing your feelings to him/her.
3. Pursuing him/her romantically, writing repeated love letters, asking him/her out on dates, etc.

My belief is that, in the case that the object of my affection is a married woman, all three above are wrong. It's wrong to harbor romantic feelings for, or be enamored with, a married woman. It's wrong to purposefully confess your feelings (which are wrong in the first place) for a married woman. And it's wrong to romantically pursue a married woman. But what if the woman is engaged to be, but not yet, married? In this case, is #1 and #2 acceptable? Is it wrong to even harbor romantic feelings for an engaged woman, much less confess your feelings for her?

To make things even more complicated, let's say the man and the woman have been friends for many years, and even had romantic feelings for one another at one point but never seriously pursued that side of their relationship. Then, years later the woman announces her engagement to someone else. After the engagement is announced, the guy-friend begins to realize his feelings for her. How far is he allowed to go? Is he allowed to go all out (#1, #2 and #3) to pursue the woman he loves or should he stop at #2? Or maybe he should reject these feelings completely and accept that she's gone for good.

And all of this should be considered from a Christian perspective. The goal here is to understand what is or isn't acceptable for someone who seeks Christ.

What do you think?

[LesPaulPlayer]

How a man think so is he. I believe that you think, you have already commited a sin to an extent.

I don't mind if you confess your feelings, but expect to ruin your relationship with her


3 = no, you just don't do that.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Napoleon17

Well, she can avoid a life of pain if she marries the wrong guy. She can think, "you know, my fiance really is a complete abusive jerk, I deserve better, leave him, and possibly start a healthy relationship. I personally know another person who has done this, and I can't imagine them being married to the person they were engaged to. So yeah, that's a good, pure, and very noble thing that came from it.

If her fiance is a complete abusive jerk, she should leave him for reasons entirely unrelated to wanting to pursue a different person. Obviously, she would then be "fair game."

As long as she's still engaged to the person, she's apparently not decided that her fiance is a jerk, still loves him enough to want to marry him, and is not available to other suitors.

I don't really understand this woman-as-victim or love-as-happenstance viewpoint. I mean, she chose to become engaged to the jerk, after all. Love is stupid sometimes, but not blind.

It reminds me of the silly comic strip Luann where Brad was always trying to woo Toni away from the "jerk" Dirk. I mean, sure it happens that a great girl find a bum guy, but it's her choice.

If she hasn't chosen to break off the engagement yet, you [having a vested interest in breaking them up, unlike, say, her parents or girlfriends] have no right to try to convince her otherwise.

Really, this is like a Saved By The Bell, Zack-saves-Kelly-from-big-beefy-jerky-jock, preteen-view-of-relationships idea. If you're married, I'm surprised you could still hold such a view.

It happens all the time some lovesick soul sees the "perfect girl" being "mistreated" by a "jerk" and thinks he can "rescue" her and "treat her like a queen", but that's all just make-believe.

Nobody forces anyone, in this day and age, to become engaged. Yes, women get engaged to abusers and even marry them, but trying to be a "savior" just perpetuates the problem.

Isolating an engaged woman by offering her something "on the side" makes her less likely to view her beau critically (she's biased by her other suitor) and him more likely to be a jerk.

There is no good way (as you've proven by your Jerry Falwell example) to break up someone's engagement if you are romantically interested in one of the individuals involved in it.

I don't believe in marriages that cannot work. I don't believe in "the wrong guy." There are asshats and pricks everywhere, but none that cannot be redeemed. This, though, isn't the way.

An engagement can end well and nobly one of two ways: marriage, or a joint decision not to follow through. Butting in and trying to woo the woman away accomplishes neither of these.

Women aren't helpless. If she really thinks her fiance is an abusive jerk and she deserves better, she'll act accordingly without your prodding. Otherwise, let her make her choice.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Novan_Leon

What do you think?

I think he's s. o. l.

What if you butt in, steal her away, and then he realizes his feelings for her more deeply, pulls himself together, and then comes back and tries to woo her away from you. Now what? Now you've ****ed up three lives, and played prepubescent, preschool playground ping-pong with the heart of the woman you said you loved.

What if you're on the other side? What if you're the engagee? Is it ok for you to entertain thoughts of women other than your fiancee? How long can that go on? Until your wedding night when you consummate the union? Why bother being engaged at all then? Would you be putting this engaged women in a good situation by pursuing her?

This is covetousness.

[TunerSteve]

I agree with all of Nate's posts.

I think our current culture has seriously cheapened, not only marriage (obvious by the divorce rates) but also engagements. It is no small thing to become engaged. When someone asks someone to marry them, it should never be taken lightly and given a spur-of-the-moment answer. If a woman has accepted a mans offer to be his spouse, that has tremendous significance, and our television/movies have made it no more important than asking someone to the prom.

I love it when I see a movie or TV show, where the proposal hits a snag, because the woman says she needs to think about it, or 'we need to talk'. It displays the extreme significance of the question at hand.

JMHO

[Thrash]

Originally Posted by Nate

played prepubescent, preschool playground ping-pong with the heart of the woman you said you loved.

.

[rock_show_host]

I have a friend who's in this situation. A while ago, he started pursuing a young woman who was engaged, got her to break off her engagement, and began dating her. Now she's pregnant and they're planning on getting married this summer.

Do I hope the circumstances as they stand now work out? Of course. He's my friend, and all parties involved were capable of making their own choices.

Do I think my friend was a complete jerk to be wooing an engaged woman in the first place? Absolutely.

Do I think his fiancee was a jerk for making herself available enough to be swayed by him while she was engaged? Yes, though I don't know her or the situation very well and so I can't comment on specifics.

And lastly, do I worry about the security of their engagement (and marriage, if they get that far) given that they're both people who would have this casual an attitude toward those commitments? 100%.

[bread man]

Originally Posted by Nate

If her fiance is a complete abusive jerk, she should leave him for reasons entirely unrelated to wanting to pursue a different person. Obviously, she would then be "fair game."

As long as she's still engaged to the person, she's apparently not decided that her fiance is a jerk, still loves him enough to want to marry him, and is not available to other suitors.

I don't really understand this woman-as-victim or love-as-happenstance viewpoint. I mean, she chose to become engaged to the jerk, after all. Love is stupid sometimes, but not blind.

It reminds me of the silly comic strip Luann where Brad was always trying to woo Toni away from the "jerk" Dirk. I mean, sure it happens that a great girl find a bum guy, but it's her choice.

If she hasn't chosen to break off the engagement yet, you [having a vested interest in breaking them up, unlike, say, her parents or girlfriends] have no right to try to convince her otherwise.

Really, this is like a Saved By The Bell, Zack-saves-Kelly-from-big-beefy-jerky-jock, preteen-view-of-relationships idea. If you're married, I'm surprised you could still hold such a view.

It happens all the time some lovesick soul sees the "perfect girl" being "mistreated" by a "jerk" and thinks he can "rescue" her and "treat her like a queen", but that's all just make-believe.

Nobody forces anyone, in this day and age, to become engaged. Yes, women get engaged to abusers and even marry them, but trying to be a "savior" just perpetuates the problem.

Isolating an engaged woman by offering her something "on the side" makes her less likely to view her beau critically (she's biased by her other suitor) and him more likely to be a jerk.

There is no good way (as you've proven by your Jerry Falwell example) to break up someone's engagement if you are romantically interested in one of the individuals involved in it.

I don't believe in marriages that cannot work. I don't believe in "the wrong guy." There are asshats and pricks everywhere, but none that cannot be redeemed. This, though, isn't the way.

An engagement can end well and nobly one of two ways: marriage, or a joint decision not to follow through. Butting in and trying to woo the woman away accomplishes neither of these.

Women aren't helpless. If she really thinks her fiance is an abusive jerk and she deserves better, she'll act accordingly without your prodding. Otherwise, let her make her choice.

Just quoting this post to say that I agree 100%. Nate stated everything I wanted to much better than I could have.

[Napoleon17]

Originally Posted by Nate

If her fiance is a complete abusive jerk, she should leave him for reasons entirely unrelated to wanting to pursue a different person. Obviously, she would then be "fair game.

She should leave him. Many women in abusive relationships don't, for a variety of reasons. Finances, kids, no where else to go, etc. All very common reasons women stay in abusive relationships. A little prodding wouldn't seem inappropriate to me in situations like these. Parents have the right to give their opinion, why not a close friend who happens to have a romantic interest in getting them split up? Both goals are the same, both are out of love, both are trying to warn her of the pain she's going to experience if she marries a loser.

As long as she's still engaged to the person, she's apparently not decided that her fiance is a jerk, still loves him enough to want to marry him, and is not available to other suitors.

Ah, yes, because women are simple like that. I know at least two women who stayed engaged longer than they wanted to for various, unimportant reasons. Looking back at their relationships now, they think they are stupid for being in them, but they were.

If she hasn't chosen to break off the engagement yet, you [having a vested interest in breaking them up, unlike, say, her parents or girlfriends] have no right to try to convince her otherwise.

Yes you do have that right. Especially if you're a close friend as in the OP's example.

Really, this is like a Saved By The Bell, Zack-saves-Kelly-from-big-beefy-jerky-jock, preteen-view-of-relationships idea. If you're married, I'm surprised you could still hold such a view.

I never really watched Saved By The Bell. Interesting.

Isolating an engaged woman by offering her something "on the side" makes her less likely to view her beau critically (she's biased by her other suitor) and him more likely to be a jerk.

Offering her something on the side? What are you even talking about?

There is no good way (as you've proven by your Jerry Falwell example) to break up someone's engagement if you are romantically interested in one of the individuals involved in it.

Your logic is way off base. You say that with my one example I've proven that there is no good way? Ah. Because one person did it the wrong way, he could not have done it any other way. Makes perfect sense.

An engagement can end well and nobly one of two ways: marriage, or a joint decision not to follow through. Butting in and trying to woo the woman away accomplishes neither of these.

Or it could end with one party deciding to end it before getting married. It happens all the time. There usually aren't joint decisions to end relationships. And the point isn't to end the relationship "well and nobly". It's to end it without sin. It's not sinful for guy to tell an engaged woman how he feels, and to see if she feels the same way. If she ends it then, sure, it might not sound as "well and noble" as a mutual decision, but it's for the best, and there's nothing sinful about it.

Women aren't helpless. If she really thinks her fiance is an abusive jerk and she deserves better, she'll act accordingly without your prodding. Otherwise, let her make her choice.

Yes, women aren't helpless. She can make her own decisions. If you tell her how you feel, she decides she likes you better than him, leaves him, and gets with you, that is her making her own choice. Of course it's her own choice. And she might not act accordingly without your prodding. The added information that another guy likes her could be enough to sway her decision, and if it is, then what business does she have with her fiance in the first place?

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Napoleon17

A little prodding wouldn't seem inappropriate to me in situations like these. Parents have the right to give their opinion, why not a close friend who happens to have a romantic interest in getting them split up?

It's called a conflict of interest. In business, it will land you in jail.

In life, it clouds your perspective and makes your advice meaningless.

Your logic is way off base. You say that with my one example I've proven that there is no good way? Ah. Because one person did it the wrong way, he could not have done it any other way. Makes perfect sense.

Presumably if you had had a decent example to give, you would have offered it instead of your half-assed example from a raving lunatic of a preacher which you now probably wish you hadn't offered since we're all calling you out on just how ridiculous it is.

I can't think of a single good example, anecdotal or historical... not even narrative: even in the chick flicks where this happens, someone always ends up doing something wrong.

Yes, women aren't helpless. She can make her own decisions. If you tell her how you feel, she decides she likes you better than him, leaves him, and gets with you, that is her making her own choice. Of course it's her own choice. And she might not act accordingly without your prodding. The added information that another guy likes her could be enough to sway her decision, and if it is, then what business does she have with her fiance in the first place?

What business do you have with such a loose woman?

"Another guy likes her"? Wow. There's a great reason to breakup.

By the way, my wife is stalking me in here... don't none of you go wooing her, now. (Hi, babe. )

Originally Posted by Napoleon17

Ah, yes, because women are simple like that.

By the way, don't pin the misogyny or chauvinism label on me.

You're the one saying a woman needs prodding to decide to leave an *******.

[tenwatt]

No...unless it's one of those wierd aranged marriages or something. Only kidding...

NO!

Originally Posted by Novan_Leon

My belief is that, in the case that the object of my affection is a married woman, all three above are wrong. It's wrong to harbor romantic feelings for, or be enamored with, a married woman. It's wrong to purposefully confess your feelings (which are wrong in the first place) for a married woman. And it's wrong to romantically pursue a married woman. But what if the woman is engaged to be, but not yet, married? In this case, is #1 and #2 acceptable? Is it wrong to even harbor romantic feelings for an engaged woman, much less confess your feelings for her?

How would you manage to stop this feelings once the engagement moved into marriage?

[guitarguy90]

Originally Posted by Jonular

My roommate, friend, and I had a 45 minute debate over this after watching how season 2 ended. I'm not even ashamed to admit this.

I'm not surprised. I don't agree at all with what he did.

[Napoleon17]

Presumably if you had had a decent example to give, you would have offered it instead of your half-assed example from a raving lunatic of a preacher which you now probably wish you hadn't offered since we're all calling you out on just how ridiculous it is.

So you stand by your logic that my Jerry Falwell story proves that there is no good way to break up an engagement? And yes, I've already said I shouldn't have included such a red herring "lol omg Jerry sinned" because it has taken the thread off topic a little bit.

I can't think of a single good example, anecdotal or historical... not even narrative: even in the chick flicks where this happens, someone always ends up doing something wrong.

It could be that most situations like this are generally private matters. However, I can think of one example of a person I know who was in a relationship with a guy, started to realize that she could not go through with it, another guy told her how he felt, and that, along with a few other related reasons, ended the relationship she was in, and in about 3 months began a relationship with the other guy. This was a while ago, but looking back, no one that knows them can imagine them not being together.

Another guy likes her"? Wow. There's a great reason to breakup.

If she chooses to, then yes, it is a great reason.

Originally Posted by Nate

By the way, don't pin the misogyny or chauvinism label on me.

You're the one saying a woman needs prodding to decide to leave an *******

Some women in abusive relationships do need help deciding to leave an abusive person. I'm not going to apologize for saying that.

"As long as she's still engaged to the person, she's apparently not decided that her fiance is a jerk, still loves him enough to want to marry him, and is not available to other suitors."

What you said before ^ is an oversimplification. That's all I was saying. Relationships aren't always this nice and neat.

[Novan_Leon]

Originally Posted by guyskankrye

How would you manage to stop this feelings once the engagement moved into marriage?

The same way you would stop them if you believed that harboring such feelings during the engagement was wrong. You would simply reject them and move on. The question is whether it's ok to harbor these feelings for someone who's engaged to another man/woman prior to marriage.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Napoleon17

So you stand by your logic that my Jerry Falwell story proves that there is no good way to break up an engagement? And yes, I've already said I should have altered the illustration to remove the red herring, since most of the people in this thread seem to want to talk about "Jerry sinned" when that wasn't really the point of the illustration. Anyways.

I'll stand by it insofar as I think if there was a good way, we would not have questioned your example because we would have been able to see past the "red herring" to the core of the issue. The fact of the matter is that that red herring is substantial and not really so red.