[Napoleon17]

So if a girl was engaged, would you equivocate the acts of deception, destruction of mail, etc... to simply telling the girl how you feel and seeing how she responds? Because I'm not arguing for deception or other sins. I'm simply saying it's okay to tell the girl how you feel, see how she responds, etc.

I love how my illustration has become a straw man. Nice.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Napoleon17

So if a girl was engaged, would you equivocate the acts of deception, destruction of mail, etc... to simply telling the girl how you feel and seeing how she responds? Because I'm not arguing for deception or other sins. I'm simply saying it's okay to tell the girl how you feel, see how she responds, etc.

I love how my illustration has become a straw man. Nice.

not a straw man if we are dealing with your illustration. You brought up an illustration, as a positive example. People pointed out it was sinful, now you call it a strawman...

you brought it up...

[Napoleon17]

Originally Posted by Billgamesh

not a straw man if we are dealing with your illustration. You brought up an illustration, as a positive example. People pointed out it was sinful, now you call it a strawman...

you brought it up...

Except I am not arguing that it is acceptable to sin by deceiving someone. You are saying "It's not acceptable to sin by deceiving someone." That's not the argument. So... it is a straw man.




EDIT: The following might be a good summation of what my "argument" is. I don't know.

_______________________________________________________________________________________


Jerry thought that being with Macel was so important, that he decided to sin in order to be able to marry the woman he was in love with. He was wrong to do so. No one is arguing that point.

However, in my opinion, there is nothing inherently sinful about writing a letter to an engaged woman, telling her how you feel about her (if you do think this is inherently sinful, then so be it).

Many people in this thread seem to think that even this comparatively innocuous action by him would be inherently sinful, simply because she’s engaged. They don’t seem to have any scriptural basis for why this would be wrong. They just don’t like the idea. “He should not have interfered at all”, many would say.

However, considering the successful, happy marriage he had with Macel, it does become harder to just say “don’t interfere, she’s engaged”? I for one could not imagine doing absolutely nothing if my wife had been in a similar situation. I would certainly tell her how I felt. If the other guy got mad, I wouldn’t really care, because I love her.

So, the illustration is not perfect, the argument is not even meant to be conclusive. It is aimed towards those who read this thread for 2 seconds and think “that just sounds wrong” but have no real reason for being against it. Marriage is a serious issue.

Now, if a poster has a coherent reason for being against simply telling an engaged girl how they feel... such as a scriptural reason, so be it. Feel free to give a good reason, posters. Many people may just think it’s inherently sinful to tell an engaged woman how you feel. If so, we probably will never agree on this issue. That’s fine. At least that would be better than just coming into this thread, saying “lol omg he can’t do that she’s off limits” with no thought given to it whatsoever.

[LesPaulPlayer]

You know what I kind of take back my statement, I guess the woman has a right to know if you like her or nor, but you can't push farther than that.

[Thrash]

I don' t think anyone is arguing it is wrong to tell an engaged person how you feel...

however, I think if you choose to do so, be ready for rejection in most cases....

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by Napoleon17

However, in my opinion, there is nothing inherently sinful about writing a letter to an engaged woman, telling her how you feel about her (if you do think this is inherently sinful, then so be it).

I personally think you just chose a really bad example to illustrate your point.

Originally Posted by Thrash

I don't believe there is much scriptural basis for this in the least. Maybe you could come up with a philosophical system which engages this ideal... however, I don't think you can find a hint of it in scripture. maybe i will start a thread in theology.... theology has seemed kinda dead lately anyway!

I don't believe it either, but yes, that discussion is not for this thread. Please take it elsewhere.

[Role Modlin]

Originally Posted by Napoleon17

Jerry Falwell was in love a girl who was engaged to another man. This man was his roommate, and he would write letters to this girl (because she was in a different city). He would give them to Jerry, and ask him to drop them off at the post office for him. Jerry burned the letters, and sent his own. That was how he stole the girl who eventually became his wife. They had a very long and very happy marriage.

Was Jerry wrong to do this? Should he feel badly because he deceived his roommate? No. He did what he had to do to win her heart, the other guy didn't. Most of the time relationships aren't simple and neat, they're complicated and messy, and sometimes people get hurt. The real truth is that it doesn't really matter if there's a ring on her finger if you're not constantly trying to make the relationship work. Once you're married, that's a different story. You're stuck with each other then (barring the horrible option of divorce). But engagement does not equal marriage.

Just my opinion.

Yes...he was wrong. It shows that he was deceitful and not to be trusted. His happy, loving marriage was built on lies.

Why would you wait until after someone is engaged before sharing your feelings? That's just plain stupid. If you knew and cared for this person before they were engaged...you missed your chance...deal with it.

If you didn't have a relationship with the person before their engagement I'd be curious to know how you got so close to someone already involved in a serious relationship with someone else. If she/he is out "playing the field" while engaged...I'd wager that she/he isn't worth the pursuit.

Either way...when a person is that involved with someone else...I think it is wrong to interfere. Hollywood has turned this idea into a cute, romantic notion when it's really rather despicable.

Originally Posted by Napoleon17

Now, if a poster has a coherent reason for being against simply telling an engaged girl how they feel... such as a scriptural reason, so be it. Feel free to give a good reason, posters. Many people may just think it’s inherently sinful to tell an engaged woman how you feel. If so, we probably will never agree on this issue. That’s fine. At least that would be better than just coming into this thread, saying “lol omg he can’t do that she’s off limits” with no thought given to it whatsoever.

I don't think you want scriptural support because the Bible usually equates engagement with marriage. Joseph was thinking of divorcing Mary before they were ever married. In his mind...they were already attached before they were married.

Originally Posted by Napoleon17

However, considering the successful, happy marriage he had with Macel, it does become harder to just say “don’t interfere, she’s engaged”? I for one could not imagine doing absolutely nothing if my wife had been in a similar situation. I would certainly tell her how I felt. If the other guy got mad, I wouldn’t really care, because I love her.

I want to go back to this point again. How do you fall in love with a woman who is supposedly in a serious relationship with another man? I want to know.

I don't know how everyone else felt...but once I got engaged I did my best to let people know that I was no longer interested in finding someone. I did my best to stay out of situations that might have given other women the wrong ideas. My point...it would be really hard to fall in love with someone who is in love with someone else...unless one of the two of you were not taking that other relationship seriously. Either way...someone is not being honest.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Thrash

I don' t think anyone is arguing it is wrong to tell an engaged person how you feel...

I would argue this 'til the ****ing cows come home.

So, there's at least one.

What good, pure, or noble thing can come from it?

Then, don't think on it.

[LesPaulPlayer]

Originally Posted by Nate

I would argue this 'til the ****ing cows come home.

So, there's at least one.

What good, pure, or noble thing can come from it?

Then, don't think on it.

I agree, It's something where you just missed your chance, you need to get over it



what does that say?

[Nate]

Originally Posted by LesPaulPlayer

what does that say?

I think it says "singing cows," but I'm not sure.

[LesPaulPlayer]

why did it censor it? weird...

[Thrash]

Originally Posted by Nate

I would argue this 'til the ****ing cows come home.

So, there's at least one.

What good, pure, or noble thing can come from it?

Then, don't think on it.

I stand corrected!

[Role Modlin]

Originally Posted by Nate

I would argue this 'til the ****ing cows come home.

So, there's at least one.

What good, pure, or noble thing can come from it?

Then, don't think on it.

I thought that was what I was arguing as well.

[Thrash]

dang, double wrong.

[Napoleon17]

Originally Posted by Thrash

I don' t think anyone is arguing it is wrong to tell an engaged person how you feel...

however, I think if you choose to do so, be ready for rejection in most cases....

Yeah, people are arguing it. That's what the thread is about.

Originally Posted by Rainer.

I personally think you just chose a really bad example to illustrate your point.

I agree, I kinda threw a red herring into the mix, but I don't think it should be that hard to focus on the topic at hand.

Originally Posted by Mr. Role Modlin

Yes...he was wrong. It shows that he was deceitful and not to be trusted. His happy, loving marriage was built on lies.

He was wrong. Yep.

Originally Posted by Mr. Role Modlin

I don't think you want scriptural support because the Bible usually equates engagement with marriage. Joseph was thinking of divorcing Mary before they were ever married. In his mind...they were already attached before they were married.

A lot of things were different about their culture back then. We don't do those same things. We don't equate engagements with marriage. Should we, because they did? Interesting thought. I wonder, did their treatment of engagement stem from any old testament laws? Or was it purely a cultural thing?

Originally Posted by Nate

I would argue this 'til the ****ing cows come home.

So, there's at least one.

What good, pure, or noble thing can come from it?

Then, don't think on it.

Well, she can avoid a life of pain if she marries the wrong guy. She can think, "you know, my fiance really is a complete abusive jerk, I deserve better, leave him, and possibly start a healthy relationship. I personally know another person who has done this, and I can't imagine them being married to the person they were engaged to. So yeah, that's a good, pure, and very noble thing that came from it.