[Kiss the Son]

My girlfriend and I have been dating for a year now. Since last April, we've experienced quite a lot of life together. We both are very confident that God wants us to be together and have talked about getting married numerous times. Up until now, I've not received one single red flag about anything in our relationship that would worry me about "us." Until now.

Recently, one of my girlfriend's friends came to Christ. She is very charismatic about her faith. Often times, when she and my girlfriend get together, her charisma rubs off and my girlfriend gets very excited about things that she normally doesn't get excited about. This change concerns me for two reasons.

1) Her friend is new in her faith, yet very very confident about everything she professes. I want to be very careful about how I react to this, but it's difficult. Part of me believes that all of this is genuine, just different from my own faith and something that I will get accustomed to. Part of me, however, is concerned that her friend may misjudge some things (being young in her faith) and will pass this misjudgment on to my girlfriend, who is prone to listen to a lot of what her friend says. I've asked God for help in trusting him in this situation, that this is really Him working in her life in real and genuine ways, but it's still very frustrating for me.

2) Provided that all of this really is genuine, I'm worried that my girlfriend and I will grow apart because of this. I am very quiet about my faith. I don't mean that I don't like talking about it; it's just that I find my most intimate worship with God in nature and the wilderness and I share my faith through those I have developed a trusting relationship with, not through public evangelizing with people I don't know. I'm nervous because I'm afraid that my girlfriend will adopt this new lifestyle of faith, one I'm not prepared to adopt myself and truly never see myself being prepared to adopt.

Am I being close-minded and shallow? Am I not trusting God enough? Is it possible to have very different ways of expressing one's faith and still be able to connect at very deep spiritual and emotional levels (the kind of levels reached in marriage)?

We've had issues with this before, times when my girlfriend can get overwhelmed during an intense worship session while I simultaneously feel suffocated and need to leave the room to find some quiet. She feels abandoned and I feel inadequate with my inability to match her outward expression of faith. Intense worship sessions are fine for many people, and I've experienced my fair share of them, but it's in the quiet places that I often find God. This she can understand, but she can't understand why I feel suffocated. Honestly, I can't explain it either.

I could use some help with this. It's literally keeping me up at nights (this night in particular).

I have nothing against charismatic or excited Christians. It's just not how God created me to express my faith. My concern about it is merely for the fact that because it's so much different from mine, I worry that my girlfriend and I will find it difficult to connect spiritually if she chooses to become more charismatic about her faith.

Please refrain from dishing out judgments on my character from anything written here and take it at face value. I'd appreciate it.

[Nate]

I am finding it hard to put any reasonable advice into words.

I think "connecting spiritually" means something very different from what you seem to think it means.

These are Kemper Crabb's words, not mine, but they are, to my mind, the perfect picture of what the trifold relationship between two Christian lovers and their God should look like:

Originally Posted by Kemper Crabb, Thigpen's Wedding

Here I set my face unto you,
Here I speak my heart's true vow,
Here I choose to walk beside you,
Loving only you, my heart speaks true
Forevermore from now.

I will love you in the dawning,
And in the bright noonday,
I will love you in the even,
Everyday I live, my heart I'll give,
I'll love you from my grave.

I have heard God in your laughter,
I have seen Him on your face,
And it's clear now what He's after
For He wrote your name on my heart in flame,
It's a wound I'll not erase.

We will mount the wings of morning,
We will fly before the wind,
We will dwell within the mystery
Of the glories of Jehovah's love,
A circle with no end.

We will pitch our tents toward Zion
In the shadow of His love,
We will covenant between us,
We will covenant with the earth below
And with heaven up above.

We will covenant with the dust below
And the Spirit up above.

Though we spoke generic traditional words at the exchanging of our rings, this song was played at the lighting of our unity candle and I consider this text to be our real wedding vow.

Moods and attitudes and spiritual acclimations will change over time. All that aside, could you make a binding covenant with this girl to dwell within the mystery of the glories of Jehovah's love?

The wonder of God's love is that although it is ever the same, it is new every morning. There may come a time when you are more "excited" about your faith than she is. What happens then?

The covenant relationship between lovers and God is expressed in so much more than communal worship. If anything, that's almost a time for that covenant to be absorbed into a greater one.

Can you see yourself living together with this girl in the covenant community and working together toward your own mutual benefit and the benefit of those around you? That's the real issue.

Everyone's response to God is different at different times and seasons of life. You will cry, you will rejoice; you will kill, you will heal; you will reap, you will sow. Through it all, you must love.

What is your relationship with this girl like outside of worship? Too many Christians treat church life as a litmus test. It's the absolute worst place to judge a person's potential as a mate.

Worship is not a date. You have no extra responsibility as a lover during a worship service, certainly none that would entail "abandonment" if shirked. You don't have to "match" her enthusiasm.

You come as a couple to worship, and you certainly can worship as a couple. This doesn't mean you worship the same way, but that you worship like-mindedly and with one shared accord.

If you are in a worship service that makes you have to leave, something's wrong with that worship service. Find somewhere where the two of you can worship as individuals, yet also as a couple.

In closing, the most important thing is not individual compatibility, but joined purpose and covenant love that expresses itself in and through the covenant community. Be more old school about this.

In worship, you should not be focused on yourself and your needs. Neither should you be focused on her needs. You should be focused on God and on the edification of the body of assembled believers.

The original purpose of the church wasn't to provide an outlet for individual spirituality to flourish, but to provide a place for lovers, friends, enemies, and families to express love for each other and for God.

These are really difficult things to think and talk about. Church is not a time to set aside romantic commitments, but it is also not a time to pursue them. I think a fuller view of romance would help a lot.

[Nate]

What kind of church do you go to?

What is the membership demographic like?

Is it mostly young people, or do you worship with all ages?

[Kiss the Son]

First off, let me say thanks a lot for taking the time to respond to this. It’s a lot of stuff to respond to, but it’s all very close to my heart and it means a lot to have some input on it.

Originally Posted by Nate

Though we spoke generic traditional words at the exchanging of our rings, this song was played at the lighting of our unity candle and I consider this text to be our real wedding vow.

Moods and attitudes and spiritual acclimations will change over time. All that aside, could you make a binding covenant with this girl to dwell within the mystery of the glories of Jehovah's love?

That’s basically what we’ve committed to do, being confident in what we feel God has planned for us.

Originally Posted by Nate

The wonder of God's love is that although it is ever the same, it is new every morning. There may come a time when you are more "excited" about your faith than she is. What happens then?

I don’t know, to be honest. I’ve always naturally been very quiet about my faith and I’m not prone to excitement (at least haven’t up until now, not to say it won’t ever happen). Even my “spiritual highs” are pretty low-key. She and I both find it difficult when she gets excited about something and I don’t return the same gesture, not because I don't care, but because its just not how I react.

Originally Posted by Nate

The covenant relationship between lovers and God is expressed in so much more than communal worship. If anything, that's almost a time for that covenant to be absorbed into a greater one.

Can you see yourself living together with this girl in the covenant community and working together toward your own mutual benefit and the benefit of those around you? That's the real issue.

Yes, we both can. Like I said, that’s what we’ve committed to do. That’s not to say we’ve perfected it at all, but we’re working towards this.

Originally Posted by Nate

Everyone's response to God is different at different times and seasons of life. You will cry, you will rejoice; you will kill, you will heal; you will reap, you will sow. Through it all, you must love.

What is your relationship with this girl like outside of worship? Too many Christians treat church life as a litmus test. It's the absolute worst place to judge a person's potential as a mate.

We see each other nearly every day. Like I said, we’ve experienced a lot of life together: the death of a family member, school/work stresses, living together and sexual temptation (both of which we’ve been through, worked through, and gotten past with the grace of God), problems within our own families (ie.-sibling trouble), spending time with each others friends, etc. I could go on. We have seen each other at our best and our worst, in the hardest situations and the best situations.

Originally Posted by Nate

Worship is not a date. You have no extra responsibility as a lover during a worship service, certainly none that would entail "abandonment" if shirked. You don't have to "match" her enthusiasm.

You come as a couple to worship, and you certainly can worship as a couple. This doesn't mean you worship the same way, but that you worship like-mindedly and with one shared accord.

If you are in a worship service that makes you have to leave, something's wrong with that worship service. Find somewhere where the two of you can worship as individuals, yet also as a couple.

This is where the abandonment feeling comes from: she would like me, I think, to worship along with her in the same manner. While I can be fine singing praises to God alongside her, she often gets “lost” in the music and enters a deep state of worship (I don’t know how to better describe it but I think you know what I mean). This is usually when everyone else in the room feels the exact same way and so they keep playing, and keep playing, and keep playing. While this is absolutely fine, it’s definitely not something I feel like I can join in on (I’ve found, actually, that there are very few people who feel the same way that I do when it comes to this; in fact, I’ve met none). When the congregation experiences this, all I want to do is leave because I feel like the odd man out, the black sheep, or what-have-you. Honestly, sometimes I wish they’d stop playing music and be silent for 5 or 10 minutes. Sheesh, what I could do with 10 minutes of silence…I can’t get lost in a state of worship like everyone else, and so it makes me feel weird or stupid and I don’t like being there. This doesn’t just happen at our church, but at other places of worship as well. There is nothing wrong with the worship (which is why I wonder what the heck is wrong with me).

Originally Posted by Nate

In closing, the most important thing is not individual compatibility, but joined purpose and covenant love that expresses itself in and through the covenant community. Be more old school about this.

Can you define old school please?

Originally Posted by Nate

In worship, you should not be focused on yourself and your needs. Neither should you be focused on her needs. You should be focused on God and on the edification of the body of assembled believers.

I understand this, I think, but sometimes forget it. At the same time, my issue with my expression of worship really doesn’t have anything to do with my own needs. More or less it has to do with how I am able to come into a state of worship with God. I’m not being picky about how I do it; I honestly believe that this is just how God made me—to find Him in the quiet places in life, in nature and the beauty of a mountain or the sea. Read Wild at Heart and that’s me. I like Sunday morning worship but it doesn’t allow me to step into a place of worship like it does for others.

Originally Posted by Nate

The original purpose of the church wasn't to provide an outlet for individual spirituality to flourish, but to provide a place for lovers, friends, enemies, and families to express love for each other and for God.

These are really difficult things to think and talk about. Church is not a time to set aside romantic commitments, but it is also not a time to pursue them. I think a fuller view of romance would help a lot.

I don’t mean to make it sound like I’m trying to have a romantic experience during church (or other gathering of God’s people). I’m just trying to understand either 1) Why I’m having a hard time with this, 2) If my misunderstanding of this is a fault of mine that I need to address, 3) If it’s not a fault, is it still ok, and if so, how do we as a couple learn to experience God together but differently?

What do you mean by “fuller view of romance"? Are you saying I need to broaden my perception of it? If so, in what ways?

[Kiss the Son]

Originally Posted by Nate

What kind of church do you go to?

It's a non-denominational church. Our pastor is a fantastic speaker and an unbelievably humble man of God. Worship is pretty average. We sing a variety of songs, from newer choruses to older humns

Originally Posted by Nate

What is the membership demographic like?

Greatly varied. Lots of young kids, lots of teenagers, 20-something singles, young married couples, young families, grown families, older couples, and elderly couples. They're all white (if it matters).

Originally Posted by Nate

Is it mostly young people, or do you worship with all ages?

All ages. We're also involved with Campus Crusade for Christ during the week, so that obviously is limited to a certain age group.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Kiss the Son

Can you define old school please?

Marriage used to be a communal event. So did church. So did married persons' ministry and service in their church. All of these things are intensly individualized today.

Marriage is a contract between two persons, but also, I think, between two persons and God, between two persons and their families, and between two persons and society.

Church is a gathering of like-minded individuals for the purpose of mutual edification. Today, we are encouraged to be more individual, less like-minded, and much less edifying.

The ministry of married persons within the church used to be one of mutual service, mentoring, and submission. Now, the church attempts less and less to treat married persons as such.

From "men's" or "women's" ministries to volunteer child-care to sermons tailored at individuals rather than families, the modern church keeps tearing asunder what God has joined together.

The church should build up couples, not tear them down. If you find the church service you are attending is causing a rift between you, there is something very wrong with that service.

By "old school," I mean consider marriage, church, and the role of family (and, more broadly, couples) within the church in a much wider, traditionalistic, more holistic perspective.

The "old school" church would be an assembly of believing households, with each household a microcosm of the church. The church itself would be a microcosm of the "catholic" church.

The "old school" church would focus more on internal ministry than on worship or evangelism (yes, really). Couples would mentor each other. Singles would be mentored by couples.

The "old school" marriage would act as a single social unit rather than as a marriage of convenience between two might-as-well-be-single individuals. They would truly be as one flesh.

The "old school" marriage would be indivudally as different as the day is long, but together would be of one mind and one purpose in parenting, church living, and ministering to society.

The "old school" role of family in the church would be to attend together instead of shipping kids off to SS by grade, having separate men's or women's classes, and keeping kids out of sermons.

The "old school" role of family in the church would recognize that the marriage vows, the parental commitment, and the body of Christ are all pictures of the exact same thing, and live accordingly.

When I say be more "old school," I mean to try to lose the individualization that modernity has created and return to a much more communal mindset in viewing love, marriage, and the church.

I understand this, I think, but sometimes forget it. At the same time, my issue with my expression of worship really doesn’t have anything to do with my own needs. More or less it has to do with how I am able to come into a state of worship with God. I’m not being picky about how I do it; I honestly believe that this is just how God made me—to find Him in the quiet places in life, in nature and the beauty of a mountain or the sea. Read Wild at Heart and that’s me. I like Sunday morning worship but it doesn’t allow me to step into a place of worship like it does for others.

I don’t mean to make it sound like I’m trying to have a romantic experience during church (or other gathering of God’s people). I’m just trying to understand either 1) Why I’m having a hard time with this, 2) If my misunderstanding of this is a fault of mine that I need to address, 3) If it’s not a fault, is it still ok, and if so, how do we as a couple learn to experience God together but differently?

I don't really think there exists such a thing as a "state of worship," so this line of discussion can't really be fruitful for either of us. I also don't think worship is what the modern church thinks it is.

What do you mean by “fuller view of romance"? Are you saying I need to broaden my perception of it? If so, in what ways?

I mean to broaden the view of romance to include spiritual, emotional, physical, social, and psychological differences as a pillar of romantic love rather than as a hindrance to it.

"Connection" between romantic lovers is not about sameness, but about oneness. This is modeled for us in the Godhead, where Three are truly Three, but are also truly One.

The answer to the question of how to experience God together but differently is... to experience God together but differently. The question answers itself, really. There's no other way.

Accept that love is ambiguous, meaning that it makes little sense how two people can be one flesh, how two different lives can become one family, and learn to live with it. That's all.

[Novan_Leon]

Originally Posted by Kiss the Son

I am very quiet about my faith. I don't mean that I don't like talking about it; it's just that I find my most intimate worship with God in nature and the wilderness and I share my faith through those I have developed a trusting relationship with, not through public evangelizing with people I don't know.

You sound a lot like me, except I'm charismatic. I don't think your walk (or my walk) is at odds with the charismatic movement (since I'm charismatic), but if either one of you feels strongly drawn one way or another this could potentially cause a split. I don't put much stock in a "spiritual connection" between spouses, but I do know if you or your girlfriend are drawn toward something that excludes the other, this could cause a split, especially if both of you are young.

Personally, I would talk to her about this. Tell her everything you told us, and pray about it.