[mulletman]

Originally Posted by MattSlope

And I'm not talking driving pleasure.

I'm fairly certain a 3-series wagon would be more fun to drive than a small SUV.

[mattslope]

Originally Posted by mulletman

I'm fairly certain a 3-series wagon would be more fun to drive than a small SUV.

Agreed. Or an S4 Avant. Or a C430 wagon. Or... Yeah, I agree.

[gtrdave]

Since we're on the subject...a Volvo 240 series wagon would be a safer vehicle than dare I say any SUV made in the last 50 years (save maybe the big Mercedes) and it will probably last about as long.
Fun to drive? Well, with the non-turbo cars having the acceleration of a guy being pushed around in a cardboard box I would say that you'd best find your fun by other means.
But you'll be safe.

[mattslope]

Converse Engineering out of Maine installs SBFs in 200s and 700s. They also sell a comprehensive kit.

Jags That Run (JTR) sells plans to install a SBC in 200s and 700s as well.

Good way to increase the power in a Brick, huh?

[What5647]

Originally Posted by gtrdave

Since we're on the subject...a Volvo 240 series wagon would be a safer vehicle than dare I say any SUV made in the last 50 years (save maybe the big Mercedes) and it will probably last about as long.
Fun to drive? Well, with the non-turbo cars having the acceleration of a guy being pushed around in a cardboard box I would say that you'd best find your fun by other means.
But you'll be safe.

My dad used to have a '79 volvo wagon. Awesome car, ran like a top, even after over 250k miles. I'm still pissed that he gave it away. At least it's new owner restored it.

[Wolvrin704]

Originally Posted by MattSlope

Yes, and like $59 plastic guitar buyers, some people are wrong.

I don't see how SUV's are the $59 guitars of cars. SUV's compared to wagons could be compared to guitar brands, but not a difference of cheap vs expensive. That would be the difference between a Kia Rio and a BMW M5 if you want to make that comparison.

For myself and my family no wagon or van fits our needs or are as aesthetically pleasing to us as our SUV.

How many wagons or mini-vans have the desired options that we wanted in an SUV? V8 engine, AWD or 4WD and towing capacity, plus seat at minimum 6 passengers?

We were able to get a Mercury Mountaineer which has a V8, AWD, can tow over 5000 lbs and seats 7 people. My family absolutely loves the vehicle. And since 2000 car manufacturers have been lowering the center of gravity of SUV's so that their roll-over issue is not nearly what it was 10 years ago. Outside of rollovers SUV's are about as safe as most cars. The most safe car this year isn't even a wagon, rally car or minivan, its a sedan- the Ford Taurus.

As for a fun car.............................thats what my Mustang is for.

[What5647]

I don't have issues with SUVs. I'll never own a minivan, they're just far to difficult to work on. So, that leaves the SUV as the only alternative if I ever need seating for greater than 5.

I do have issues with the people who own SUVs and never have more than 2 people inside, never tow, etc. It's pointless for them to have something so large, and they're just making it harder for me to see the road in my sports car.

[mattslope]

Originally Posted by Wolvrin704

I don't see how SUV's are the $59 guitars of cars. SUV's compared to wagons could be compared to guitar brands, but not a difference of cheap vs expensive. That would be the difference between a Kia Rio and a BMW M5 if you want to make that comparison.

For myself and my family no wagon or van fits our needs or are as aesthetically pleasing to us as our SUV.

How many wagons or mini-vans have the desired options that we wanted in an SUV? V8 engine, AWD or 4WD and towing capacity, plus seat at minimum 6 passengers?

We were able to get a Mercury Mountaineer which has a V8, AWD, can tow over 5000 lbs and seats 7 people. My family absolutely loves the vehicle. And since 2000 car manufacturers have been lowering the center of gravity of SUV's so that their roll-over issue is not nearly what it was 10 years ago. Outside of rollovers SUV's are about as safe as most cars. The most safe car this year isn't even a wagon, rally car or minivan, its a sedan- the Ford Taurus.

As for a fun car.............................thats what my Mustang is for.

SUVs are heavier than equal sized wagons. This makes them less adept at braking, cornering and steering. The towing needs of an SUV are difficult to match with today's wagons, I grant you. Also, there aren't many 7 seat wagons on the market at present. Also true. But the average American family is 4-5 people, and you would likely concede that the average family vehicle tows 5000+ pounds less than 5% of the time. In the realm of safety, driving pleasure, and economy, a wagon is the right fit for most American families, even if exceptions exist. And for the exceptions, a compromised vehicle is necessary, I will concede.

Originally Posted by What5647

I don't have issues with SUVs. I'll never own a minivan, they're just far to difficult to work on. So, that leaves the SUV as the only alternative if I ever need seating for greater than 5.

I do have issues with the people who own SUVs and never have more than 2 people inside, never tow, etc. It's pointless for them to have something so large, and they're just making it harder for me to see the road in my sports car.

How is a minivan more difficult to work on? Are we comparing an Excursion (SUV) to a FreeStar (minivan)? Are we comparing an Escape (SUV) to a FreeStar (minivan)? I agree that the average SUV owner rarely utilizes the benefits of his/her vehicle.

All this said, I am the owner of a lifted Toyota 4X4 riding on 32" tires. Next week I am lifting the truck higher, adding larger tires, and decreasing all measurable performance. While I understand that this seems contradictory to my above stated opinions, I would suggest that I actually use my truck regularly to drive the wee out of it in mud, rocks, and snow. This would suggest that I trade driving pleasure on the pavement for all terrain prowress, unlike the average SUV owner.

The below video is proof of my chosen past-time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvssBL7tnBk

My truck is camo.

[mulletman]

What year is your 'Yota?

As a side note, I find it interesting how many people look for 'family' vehicles, and immediately turn to minivans and SUVs. I once mentioned that if I ever had kids, they would get hauled around in an Evo or STi. I received the comment that those particular vehicles are too small for 'family' vehicles. I'm kinda wondering where this idea came from. The largest vehicle my family had when I was growing up, was a Mazda 323. If fit us all, and carried us around safely, reliably, and cheaply.

[Art]

I have to say, I am a fan of the crossover as a family vehicle. I love wagons, but I also understand why it is a good idea to have a vehicle in which you can put some space between your kids if you need to. An STi as a family car? Eh. I drive with the seat all the way back in my Impreza, and that makes the back seat rather small. An S4 is a big bigger in the leg room, and I would be far more likely to go that route. But you already know that I want an S4 anyhow.

[mulletman]

Originally Posted by Art

I have to say, I am a fan of the crossover as a family vehicle. I love wagons, but I also understand why it is a good idea to have a vehicle in which you can put some space between your kids if you need to. An STi as a family car? Eh. I drive with the seat all the way back in my Impreza, and that makes the back seat rather small. An S4 is a big bigger in the leg room, and I would be far more likely to go that route. But you already know that I want an S4 anyhow.

Yeah, S4's are nice....

I think an STi would work just fine. My dad is 6'1", and my sister and I spend our whole childhood riding around in the back seat of a Mazda 323. That seemed to work just fine. Then we got a Ford Escort wagon. That seemed to work just fine too. It's true that if you put the seat all the way back, the back seat space is rather limited. However, kids are small.

[What5647]

Originally Posted by MattSlope

How is a minivan more difficult to work on? Are we comparing an Excursion (SUV) to a FreeStar (minivan)? Are we comparing an Escape (SUV) to a FreeStar (minivan)? I agree that the average SUV owner rarely utilizes the benefits of his/her vehicle.

Engine access on a truck-frame SUV is far superior to that of a minivan. I've worked on a few minivans, and you constantly have to remove working parts to access the broken ones. Plus, half of the engine is either under the windshield or in the passenger area. With trucks, you've got room on the side to get to everything.

In the "I need seating for more than 5" category SUVs win in my case. If you're not going to work on your own vehicles or you don't mind working on vans, fine. Me, I never want to have to deal with one.

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by mulletman

What year is your 'Yota?

As a side note, I find it interesting how many people look for 'family' vehicles, and immediately turn to minivans and SUVs. I once mentioned that if I ever had kids, they would get hauled around in an Evo or STi. I received the comment that those particular vehicles are too small for 'family' vehicles. I'm kinda wondering where this idea came from. The largest vehicle my family had when I was growing up, was a Mazda 323. If fit us all, and carried us around safely, reliably, and cheaply.

Let's see you take your kids on a small weekend trip in your Evo.
In your trunk will be a port-a-crib (or 2), luggage for 4, stroller (maybe a tandem if your kids are both small) and other misc. items (a guitar and amp and more...we're musicians, ya know?) required for traveling. An Evo and even an Impreza wagon is way too small to be practical.
Granted, this is not an excuse to go buy the largest SUV on the planet like so many people did and some still do, but you'll run out of room quickly in any small or even mid-sized car.

When my second daughter was born we had to lose the 4 door Neon that we owned. Traded up to a used Eagle Vision ESi (Dodge Intrepid clone fyi). It was classed as a large car and it was plenty big enough for the four of us and all of the kid's stuff, plus it had the cool integrated child's seat.
Still, as the kids grew and their stuff grew (horses and bikes and scooters and so on) the big Eagle was no longer big enough and so in 2000 it got replaced with a used Dodge Caravan which we still own. Our oldest owns a horse and her saddle(s) and tack take up enough room by themselves.
THIS is where "that idea" came from; experience.

We've thought about buying an SUV and there was one Durango that came along which seemed like a killer deal...powerful enough to tow our horse trailer, too...but we'd only tow once or twice a year and there's no point in spending the extra $$$ to drive that much truck when we'd only be using it's full potential for a couple days out of the 365 per year. I have 2 brothers with trucks and I can borrow theirs whenever, so the minivan stays.

Yeah, we take trips in my Neon when it's just us and a little luggage, but whenever there's horses or musical instruments or bikes involved, the Neon stays parked and the 'van comes along.

[mulletman]

Originally Posted by gtrdave

Let's see you take your kids on a small weekend trip in your Evo.
In your trunk will be a port-a-crib (or 2), luggage for 4, stroller (maybe a tandem if your kids are both small) and other misc. items (a guitar and amp and more...we're musicians, ya know?) required for traveling. An Evo and even an Impreza wagon is way too small to be practical.
Granted, this is not an excuse to go buy the largest SUV on the planet like so many people did and some still do, but you'll run out of room quickly in any small or even mid-sized car.

When my second daughter was born we had to lose the 4 door Neon that we owned. Traded up to a used Eagle Vision ESi (Dodge Intrepid clone fyi). It was classed as a large car and it was plenty big enough for the four of us and all of the kid's stuff, plus it had the cool integrated child's seat.
Still, as the kids grew and their stuff grew (horses and bikes and scooters and so on) the big Eagle was no longer big enough and so in 2000 it got replaced with a used Dodge Caravan which we still own. Our oldest owns a horse and her saddle(s) and tack take up enough room by themselves.
THIS is where "that idea" came from; experience.

We've thought about buying an SUV and there was one Durango that came along which seemed like a killer deal...powerful enough to tow our horse trailer, too...but we'd only tow once or twice a year and there's no point in spending the extra $$$ to drive that much truck when we'd only be using it's full potential for a couple days out of the 365 per year. I have 2 brothers with trucks and I can borrow theirs whenever, so the minivan stays.

Yeah, we take trips in my Neon when it's just us and a little luggage, but whenever there's horses or musical instruments or bikes involved, the Neon stays parked and the 'van comes along.

While I can see your point... I still maintain that you need a car large enough to haul all of that stuff, because you want to. Not because you need to. A guitar/amp is not a need. Horses are not a need. All I'm saying is this: I've seen a Mazda 323, and a Ford Escort Wagon used completely successfully as family cars. And I honestly see no need for anything larger. And yes, the cars mentioned were used for roadtrips, weekend trips, etc. It just takes a bit of planning, that's all.

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by mulletman

While I can see your point... I still maintain that you need a car large enough to haul all of that stuff, because you want to. Not because you need to. A guitar/amp is not a need. Horses are not a need. All I'm saying is this: I've seen a Mazda 323, and a Ford Escort Wagon used completely successfully as family cars. And I honestly see no need for anything larger. And yes, the cars mentioned were used for roadtrips, weekend trips, etc. It just takes a bit of planning, that's all.

Honestly, by your way of thinking you don't really need a car at all, but an Amish horse and buggy would suffice just fine.
Or you could just flat foot your way, too.

So, you're incorrect in trying to define what is a want and a need and especially so in terms of carrying small children with you. If you don't have any small children that you're responsible for 24/7 then I'll excuse your ignorance as to what children might NEED on a short trip.
A stroller could well be a NEED, a portable crib could be a NEED, all the other baby accessories could well be a NEED, too.
Aside from that, if I'm playing a gig on said short trip then I may well NEED a guitar and amp. If the trip involves an organized ride then one might argue that I and others might NEED our bikes.
Same goes for the equestrian stuff.
When we moved across the country, the minivan was packed with 2 adults, 2 children, all the stuff needed for the trip including a roof-top carrier, a dog and a cat.
I wouldn't want to think of making that same trip, especially climbing I-70 through Colorado, in an Escort wagon or less.

It's fine if a 323 served it's purpose as your family car. That's great! Just remember that you and your family may not have been the de facto standard by which all other families and their inherent NEEDS are measured. It's was your experience and it is what it is, but it should not be used as some kind of "standard", that's all I'm saying.

Many of the Amish do just fine with one horse and an open buggy. I don't know if they consider their friends with 2 horses and an enclosed buggy to be possessing those items because they are merely wants.