[Jenacen]

Originally Posted by Rainer.

Well, you're basically throwing in the mixolydian subtonic there, effectively changing the modality of the song. You're no longer in F major, you're in F mixolydian... which is cool, but still not F major.

Perhaps, but really only for that one line, as the rest of the chords we use don't have the note Eb anywhere in them, so we use the chords of F Major (F, Gm, Am, Bb, C, Dm) with E-diminished substituted with Eb Major. Or maybe I am misunderstanding your theory.

I think the reason why the diminished chord doesn't make an appearance much in contemporary worship music (aside from as a component of the dominant 7th chord) is generally because the fingerings are more awkward, and the chord isn't ubiquitously known to upstart guitarists like simple major and minor chords.

I agree with you here (and Nate). Thing is too, it's got that disgusting 1-5b intervalic dissonance in it

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Jenacen

I agree with you here (and Nate). Thing is too, it's got that disgusting 1-5b intervalic dissonance in it

Well, it's probably the most important dissonance in all of music, but sure.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by Jenacen

Perhaps, but really only for that one line, as the rest of the chords we use don't have the note Eb anywhere in them, so we use the chords of F Major (F, Gm, Am, Bb, C, Dm) with E-diminished substituted with Eb Major. Or maybe I am misunderstanding your theory.

It's mixolydian for at least the duration of that chord. If you were to form a melody over that spot, you would use notes in a mixolydian scale, not ionian.

For example, if that song were to also have a C7 chord, it would include Edim, structurally (C7 is equivalent to Edim/C), but every time you play the Eb chord, you are creating a temporary mixolydian shift.

I agree with you here (and Nate). Thing is too, it's got that disgusting 1-5b intervalic dissonance in it

I'm sure by that you mean beautiful dissonance.

All dominant 7 chords have the same dissonance between the 3 and (b)7.

[guitarhero5150]

I think the reason that I hate them so much is because we had to play off of this stupid 6 page lead sheet from a choir book for our christmas program one year, and one of the songs was a goofy sounding version of "Birthday of a King" that looked like the composer got mad and threw his note-and-chord shaker at the paper. I can't stand music that uses chords like that needlessly, trying to "fix" an old song that's not broke in the first place.
Instant musical frustration.

[Demon_Hunter]

Whats wrong with writing new arrangements for old songs?

I personally have played 3 different versions of God of Wonders, 2 of Holy Is the Lord, 2 of Lift Your Name on High, etc...

Its the way things are.


Those arent old songs really, but they tend to get new arrangements written for them on a regular basis from what I have seen in playing for my church. Some of them are more complex than others (the last arangement of God of Wonders I learned how to play is so weird, but it totally rocks). Some of them also just look more complex.

When you break down most songs peice by peice, they usually arent as bad as it can look when you are viewing a whole page of music.

[Jenacen]

Originally Posted by Rainer.

It's mixolydian for at least the duration of that chord. If you were to form a melody over that spot, you would use notes in a mixolydian scale, not ionian.

For example, if that song were to also have a C7 chord, it would include Edim, structurally (C7 is equivalent to Edim/C), but every time you play the Eb chord, you are creating a temporary mixolydian shift.

Ahh, so it's for that moment of the song. Ok I gotcha

I'm sure by that you mean beautiful dissonance.

All dominant 7 chords have the same dissonance between the 3 and (b)7.

Yes, in particular contexts it is very beautiful.

Left to itself...

[guitarhero5150]

Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter

Whats wrong with writing new arrangements for old songs?

I personally have played 3 different versions of God of Wonders, 2 of Holy Is the Lord, 2 of Lift Your Name on High, etc...

Its the way things are.


Those arent old songs really, but they tend to get new arrangements written for them on a regular basis from what I have seen in playing for my church. Some of them are more complex than others (the last arangement of God of Wonders I learned how to play is so weird, but it totally rocks). Some of them also just look more complex.

When you break down most songs peice by peice, they usually arent as bad as it can look when you are viewing a whole page of music.

I probably should have phrased that differently. I don't mind when someone redoes a song. In fact some of my favorite versions of songs are the ones that are redone: hymns or otherwise. (i.e. Blackbird, My Hope Is You, and Thief by Third Day; My Saviour's Love and How Can I Keep From Singing by Chris Tomlin) What I'm refering to is the songs that people redo and they don't even come up with a version that's even comparable to the original. If your gonna redo it, you should make it sound good and not sloppy.

[metropolis4]

I just remembered a cool chord progression that uses diminished chords very effectively. Interstate Love Song by STP. The verse chords go like this, each one lasts one bar:

--------------------------
-5----4----2----2----2
-6----5----1----1----2
-6----6----3----2----2
-4----3----2----1----0
--------------------------

I love how that progression gets more and more dissonant before perfectly resolving on the A


I can understand what you mean with the re-arrangements. Sometimes composers get a little too creative with their passing chords. I think it can go either way depending on the composer. Some do this very effectively and some are not as talented. I think chord embellishment is sort of like odd time signatures: when they are used well you don't even notice them, they just fit perfectly and add to the composition. When they are not used well they stand out and detract from the composition. It all comes down to the skill of the composer

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by guitarhero5150

Like, I know they're used in classical, jazz, and heavey instrumental metal type stuff, but is there any use for them in regular worship music? We played this song once and it had a diminished chord and it felt like it ruined the song.

What's "regular" worship music?

I use diminished chords every weekend in the 'regular' worship music that we do. They work well as passing chords and as leading chords to get back to the tonic.

[guitarhero5150]

Originally Posted by gtrdave

What's "regular" worship music?

I use diminished chords every weekend in the 'regular' worship music that we do. They work well as passing chords and as leading chords to get back to the tonic.

Worship music without diminished chords! lol

No, what I mean is like worship music that doesn't sound too overly symphonic or like an orchestra should be playing it.. Basically stuff you can play without the afformentioned 6 page lead sheet.

[guitarhero5150]

I can understand what you mean with the re-arrangements. Sometimes composers get a little too creative with their passing chords. I think it can go either way depending on the composer. Some do this very effectively and some are not as talented. I think chord embellishment is sort of like odd time signatures: when they are used well you don't even notice them, they just fit perfectly and add to the composition. When they are not used well they stand out and detract from the composition. It all comes down to the skill of the composer

Exactly. I think you said it better than I did.

[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by guitarhero5150

Worship music without diminished chords! lol

No, what I mean is like worship music that doesn't sound too overly symphonic or like an orchestra should be playing it.. Basically stuff you can play without the afformentioned 6 page lead sheet.

So... nothing by Israel Houghton or Hillsong then, right?


*cough*


*edit*

By the way, if you want to give your fingers a real work out on the fretboard, just pick out any Israel Houghton song and try to play it. Your rythm skills will necessarilly have to double just to play it convincingly. And thats high praise comming from me since I cant really stand his music. I just recognize that its good music, and btw... he uses alot of diminished, and augmented chords in his compositions.

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by Demon_Hunter

So... nothing by Israel Houghton or Hillsong then, right?


*cough*


*edit*

By the way, if you want to give your fingers a real work out on the fretboard, just pick out any Israel Houghton song and try to play it. Your rythm skills will necessarilly have to double just to play it convincingly. And thats high praise comming from me since I cant really stand his music. I just recognize that its good music, and btw... he uses alot of diminished, and augmented chords in his compositions.

Not so much Israel, but definitely Tommy Walker's music is more challenging than "regular' worship music. He uses diminished and half-diminished chords in his arrangements regularly as they're a natural part of the way chords move from one to another.
A lot of Tommy's stuff is fusion-based and very guitar-centric since that's his main instrument.
I used to think that I knew how to play the guitar, and then I started learning Tommy's stuff...

[guitarhero5150]

Not so much Israel, but definitely Tommy Walker's music is more challenging than "regular' worship music. He uses diminished and half-diminished chords in his arrangements regularly as they're a natural part of the way chords move from one to another.
A lot of Tommy's stuff is fusion-based and very guitar-centric since that's his main instrument.
I used to think that I knew how to play the guitar, and then I started learning Tommy's stuff...

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Although some of Hillsong is not that bad.