[TheProdigalModern]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28415602/

As one who underwent the "True Love Waits" curriculum twice and even was a counselor at a TLW weekend as a high school senior (what was my youth pastor thinking?), this pretty much confirms what I've suspected for a while now.

No matter how many pictures of genitals with warts and seeping wounds you show kids, no matter how much you harp on teen pregnancy, no matter how many cool virgin role models you parade in front of a youth group (or school classroom):

"It seems that pledgers aren't really internalizing the pledge," Rosenbaum said. "Participating in a program doesn't appear to be motivating them to change their behavior. It seems like abstinence has to come from an individual conviction rather than participating in a program."

[JerryLove]

It's the question of idealism vs pragmatism... it's related to the "whose fault is it"-vs-"how do we fix it" issue.

Abstinance-only programs don't lower sex rates, and they raise STD and unwanted-pregnancy rates.

[jthomas1600]

I'm of the opinion that you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. It's good to know current programs aren't working--that way those who are interested can look for ways to change them so they will be more successful. One thing I am trying at home is to talk about the entire spectrum of dating and relationships. I'm trying to talk to my kids about when it's appropriate to start holding hands, what is a good age to start "going steady", how much touching and kissing is OK at any particular age, etc. Hopefully navigating successfully through early relationship issues will help them to be more prepared when things get serious.

[OneHope]

Weekend long program vs. a life time of hormones and people are surprised at which one is winning out.

In the same way that virginity pledges probably don't increase abstinence, I don't think that sex ed classes promote having sex. I went through the normal sex ed program and it was useful. I didn't feel like afterwards I needed to go and have sex but I learned the mechanics of intercouse/birth control/etc. It was from my family and my church though that I learned the ethics surrounding sex.

[jthomas1600]

Originally Posted by OneHope

Weekend long program vs. a life time of hormones and people are surprised at which one is winning out.

In the same way that virginity pledges probably don't increase abstinence, I don't think that sex ed classes promote having sex. I went through the normal sex ed program and it was useful. I didn't feel like afterwards I needed to go and have sex but I learned the mechanics of intercouse/birth control/etc. It was from my family and my church though that I learned the ethics surrounding sex.

I emphasized two points you made that I thought were very good. Kids are exposed to stimuli so early in life and their hormones are raging at such an early age that a quick fix lets make a pledge program at 14 or 15 years old is too little too late and probably won't do much good.

[DaGeek]

"Participating in a program doesn't appear to be motivating them to change their behavior. It seems like abstinence has to come from an individual conviction rather than participating in a program."

Amen, Mr. Rosenbaum. Amen. If it's not important to the individual, it doesn't matter what kind of classes or sermons or counseling he or she gets. Only if they truly commit to it can they achieve it. The heart behind these things is far more important than wearing a cheap little Promise Ring around.


EDIT: Post #7,000!!! Woo!

[beanbag]

I don't have a cheap little promise ring. I have a really expensive one.

seriously though. while I agree that the conviction to remain pure must come from the heart, I disagree that purity programs don't have any impact. I signed a purity pledge when I was 12 that the furthest I would go is "nowhere" (that is exactly what I wrote) and as of yet...I've still basically gone nowhere, unless you count holding hands as a compromise of purity.

I didn't receive many convictions or ethics from my family; the most extensive sex talk either of my parents have ever had with me consisted of "don't have sex till you're married." they also had a no-dating-till-college rule and have made clear their preference that I not kiss anyone till my wedding day. now that I'm an adult, and am older than my parents were when they got married, they've started talking a lot about marriage in my future, and have expressed their desire that I finish school before I get married, which is not a problem. but I'm an adult and they are just beginning to have these conversations with me. and this is not and never has been family sex ed by any means. everything I learned about sex and STDs and all that stuff has either been from the dictionary or from the purity program I went through at church in 8th grade, and my friends. my parents were very vocal about remaining pure and not getting sexually involved, but they never discussed specific consequences. warning about pregnancy or STDs in a broad sweep does not exactly have the same impact that those nasty pictures I saw when I was 12 did.

the point I am trying to make is that not every one has a family who is comfortable talking about this stuff with their children. while I am also not saying that purity programs are fool-proof, they do provide some children with more necessary information than they would have otherwise received. I think that both sex ed programs and abstinence programs need to expand and include more information.

[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by Vershal

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28415602/

As one who underwent the "True Love Waits" curriculum twice and even was a counselor at a TLW weekend as a high school senior (what was my youth pastor thinking?), this pretty much confirms what I've suspected for a while now.

No matter how many pictures of genitals with warts and seeping wounds you show kids, no matter how much you harp on teen pregnancy, no matter how many cool virgin role models you parade in front of a youth group (or school classroom):

To be completely honest, DUH. Some kid making a pledge is not going to keep it. Like Mr. Rosenbaum said, they have to internalize it. I am not surprised these kids don't keep pledges. Beanbag had a point. Her promise ring isn't some cheap gizmo she picked up at K-Mart. Its an expensive item. You have to be willing to sacrifice the pleasure of sex until you get married. Its not some stupid pledge you sign at a conference, its a heart change. These people don't get it, it seems. Parents cannot expect to send their kid to some conference and have him/her come back changed through and through. Yes, it happens, on occasion, but They also need to get involved in that heart change.
Jthomas1600, you are doing exactly what I'm talking about. You are getting involved in your kids and being open about the decisions they will have to make, and letting them know what the appropriate decision is. The public education system is not good enough in this area. As a parent, you have to get involved. Period.

[ApparentlyNothing]

I think the key thing to think about is that even if you're heart truly is into abstinence, even if you do all these pledges and you internalize it all, even if you're the best Christian you can be and try to remain "pure", there's still a chance that when push comes to shove, you may go a bit too far with the opposite sex. I've been abstinent my whole life so far, and I've always been pretty strict on myself on that issue, but I'd be lying to you if I said I was 100% sure that with the right girl, the right moment, and enough time for our relationship to develop beforehand, that I wouldn't break what I've "pledged" to myself in regards to sex. The point is, abstinence only education doesn't work. Should it be encouraged? By all means. It's the safest safe sex there is. But kids need to be educated about other safe sex practices as well, because unwanted pregnancy and STD's are only inevitable if they aren't educated. Encourage the ideal, control the worst case.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by ApparentlyNothing

I think the key thing to think about is that even if you're heart truly is into abstinence, even if you do all these pledges and you internalize it all, even if you're the best Christian you can be and try to remain "pure", there's still a chance that when push comes to shove, you may go a bit too far with the opposite sex. I've been abstinent my whole life so far, and I've always been pretty strict on myself on that issue, but I'd be lying to you if I said I was 100% sure that with the right girl, the right moment, and enough time for our relationship to develop beforehand, that I wouldn't break what I've "pledged" to myself in regards to sex. The point is, abstinence only education doesn't work. Should it be encouraged? By all means. It's the safest safe sex there is. But kids need to be educated about other safe sex practices as well, because unwanted pregnancy and STD's are only inevitable if they aren't educated. Encourage the ideal, control the worst case.

Frankly, no sex ed program will prepare you for all contingencies. Condoms break. And I happen to be quite glad that birth controls fail. (I am a result of failed bc)

If you want to remain abstinent the first thing to do is not make little sidebars that for the right this at the right this... ... There is always an opportunity to do the right thing, and always an opportunity to do the wrong.

Why do you say abstinence only does not work? Obviously, if it were followed, it would, but the problem with it is people not internalizing it, which, I might also add is just as big a deal as any sex ed. If you do not internalize it, it does nothing.

Thus the problem is a lack of internalization with abstinence only. If that is the point of breakdown... what makes anyone think that other systems will not have the same point of failure?

[Ax]

Originally Posted by DaGeek

"Participating in a program doesn't appear to be motivating them to change their behavior. It seems like abstinence has to come from an individual conviction rather than participating in a program."

Amen, Mr. Rosenbaum. Amen. If it's not important to the individual, it doesn't matter what kind of classes or sermons or counseling he or she gets. Only if they truly commit to it can they achieve it. The heart behind these things is far more important than wearing a cheap little Promise Ring around.


EDIT: Post #7,000!!! Woo!

Agreed. Even then, sometimes, you wonder if your convictions are worth it.

To be honest, I went through the TLW plan... I don't remember any of the curriculum from it... I thought it was dumb when I did it... they had cd's and stuff like that and we had speakers... the whole thing made me laugh, HARD...

As a guy who's dated the same girl for 5 years and been engaged almost a year... I can tell you honestly, that temptation is a *****... There's times when I wonder if it's worth it... I know it is. I know it's what God wants, but sometimes, it seems so trivial. I curse, I lie, I covet, I disobey my parents, I've born false witness... in comparison, it's JUST one sin... and no worse than the others... It's a HARD thing to do... No wonder these programs fail.

But I will say this. Being pure and being smart are not always the same thing. I was once a boy scout and our motto was "be prepared"... telling kids not to be prepared is a bad idea. Carrying condoms does not make you not a virgin.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by AX

But I will say this. Being pure and being smart are not always the same thing. I was once a boy scout and our motto was "be prepared"... telling kids not to be prepared is a bad idea. Carrying condoms does not make you not a virgin.

OTOH, carrying condoms is preparing to fail.

I prefer to live life honestly making no plans for if I morally fail, because I take steps not to. There are ways to "be prepared" not to fail.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

OTOH, carrying condoms is preparing to fail.

I prefer to live life honestly making no plans for if I morally fail, because I take steps not to. There are ways to "be prepared" not to fail.

I do agree with this. I've known girls that have been totally clueless when their boyfriend showed up at their house with condoms and said they were "just in case they messed up". Sure, it's preparation...preparation to "fail", and in the vast majority of situations, to fail intentionally.

[ApparentlyNothing]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Frankly, no sex ed program will prepare you for all contingencies. Condoms break. And I happen to be quite glad that birth controls fail. (I am a result of failed bc)

I'm aware of that. But as I said, it's a matter of controlling the worst case. Worst case, despite being taught you should be abstinent, you have sex anyways and encounter unwanted pregnancy or STDs. Teaching safe sex practices can't eliminate these entirely, but it can at the very least bring the numbers down lot. Hence "controlling" it, not eliminating.

If you want to remain abstinent the first thing to do is not make little sidebars that for the right this at the right this... ... There is always an opportunity to do the right thing, and always an opportunity to do the wrong.

Agreed. My statement wasn't to say that I'm waiting for the right this and the right that and then I'm planning on throwing out my desire to be abstinent. My statement was merely a realistic look at the fact that sexual urges can be very difficult to ignore, especially for some people, and when push comes to shove, I'm most definitely a flawed, imperfect human being. So I couldn't with 100% certainty say I wouldn't screw up. I'm not planning on it, I'm just being realistic here.

Why do you say abstinence only does not work?

The number of kids having sex despite their abstinence only education, and thus contracting STDs and having unwanted pregnancies.

Obviously, if it were followed, it would, but the problem with it is people not internalizing it, which, I might also add is just as big a deal as any sex ed. If you do not internalize it, it does nothing.

Thus the problem is a lack of internalization with abstinence only. If that is the point of breakdown... what makes anyone think that other systems will not have the same point of failure?

True. But it's a matter of what is easier to internalize. Like I said, abstinence should certainly be taught as the best method, and moreso than just a passing mention of it before getting to the "good stuff". It should be described as something that's worth the immense amount of effort it takes to stick to. But no matter how well you teach it, some kid is going to either say, "That's lame," and not listen, or find themselves in the heat of the moment giving up whatever pledge they might have made because, let's face it, kids are stupid and screw up a lot as it is, and sex is a very powerful biological urge. But, it's much easier to say, "Wait, let me take 10 seconds to put this condom on," than "Wait, let's wait 5 years until we're adults and can get married." That's why it would be more successful (though certainly not perfect, as I doubt anyone claims it to be).

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by thesteve

I do agree with this. I've known girls that have been totally clueless when their boyfriend showed up at their house with condoms and said they were "just in case they messed up". Sure, it's preparation...preparation to "fail", and in the vast majority of situations, to fail intentionally.

Which is idiocy. People need to give themselves no quarter in life and not go through life haplessly letting life "happen." That sort of attitude will lead to failure, whether moral failure, failure to use a condom, failure to work on your marriage, etc.

Preparing for failure is only appropriate when there are circumstances outside your control. Sexual decisions should not be. Only exception that comes to mind is rape, and there is not much you can do there.