[Epaphras]

Jerry, thanks for posting the facts.

I still take issue with your assumptions that teens will have sex. I think you underestimate the countless teens who resist peer pressure and don't engage in high-risk sexual behavior. I think that if you treat teens like animals (by saying, "There's no way you're not going to have sex, it's unavoidable") then I think they will begin to act like animals. But if parents, teachers, mentors, etc. place high standards on kids, treating them as adults and supporting and encouraging them, then they can begin to act like adults. If much is expected of them, I think a majority of teens will rise to the challenge.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by Nate

Nobody has "all the facts," and while teenagers may be more likely to be confused about contraception, they certainly understand the basic sex->pregnancy chain of causation.

Actually, there's a lot of the 'chain of causation' that isn't clear, in my three years of dealing with teenage pregnancies with Christian and nonChristian students at my school. Did you know you can't get pregnant if you have sex standing up? Or if you pull out early? Or if you use a potato chip packet as a condom? Or that you can get pregnant from oral sex? Do I need to continue to illustrate the immense amount of misinforation about pregnancy that isn't covered under 'basic sex->pregnancy chain of causation' that I've heard?

It's not unfair to reflect on reality.

No decision is "free and clear," insofar as it is unaffected by the sexual, chemical, emotional, and psychological makeup of human beings as such.

You don't think 25 year olds get caught up in moments of passion and do "just what the hormones are telling them to do"? Get real.

You're saying something I didn't claim. What I was saying is that Demon_Hunter was reducing it to a 'decision' in the same way I decide to buy a pair of socks. I object to that. And no, of course 25 year olds get caught up in momnets of passion... But I also would hope that a 25 year old Christian has enough maturity to say no, even if their body is saying yes. I'm not convinced a 15 year old is always equipped by the Church or their own bodies to do that, and I think we need to take that into account.

You even subconsciously admit that "decision language" is appropriate by using it in your conclusion about "Jack and Jill deciding to have sex."

Which you're taking out of context.

All human choices are made under imperfect (if any) knowledge and incomplete (at best) understanding. The only difference is we get better at interpreting ambiguous data as we age.

But we're not dealing with ambigious data, are we? We have perfect knowledge that a sperm that fertilizes an egg makes a girl pregnant. And if we've created a generation of people who don't know that or don't understand how it happens for fear of tainting their 'purity,' I'm not sure who we've helped.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

You're saying something I didn't claim. What I was saying is that Demon_Hunter was reducing it to a 'decision' in the same way I decide to buy a pair of socks. I object to that. And no, of course 25 year olds get caught up in momnets of passion... But I also would hope that a 25 year old Christian has enough maturity to say no, even if their body is saying yes. I'm not convinced a 15 year old is always equipped by the Church or their own bodies to do that, and I think we need to take that into account.

I'd be willing to bet almost anything that there are proportionally more regretted sexual encounters that happen at 25 than there are that happen at 15. I'd also be willing to bet that there are proportionally more dating relationships, Christian or not, that result in sexual encounters at 25 than there are at 15. Would you take the bet? If not, then who's really making the worse choices?

[tlj009]

I don't know if the Kaiser Family Foundation is reputable but I found this source easier than listing various information from the CDC and most of the information here has its sources listed.

http://www.kff.org/youthhivstds/uplo...Fact-Sheet.pdf

The information that I find interesting is:

1. Only 66% claimed to be abstinent even with a definition like not having sex in the last 3 months.
2. Of these, more than 90% said the reasons were scared of HIV/AIDS, other STDs, or being to young. Religion was not mentioned here.
3. 98% of those having sex were using a form of birth control.
4. 75% of females and 82% of males used birth control the first time.
5. 17% of females and 9% of males didn't use birth control the last time they had sex.
6. Of these sexually active teens, 98% considered STD's in their decision for the kind of birth control and 94% considered pregnancy.

These numbers seem to suggest to me that teenagers know about birth control and what it is used for. They also choose not to use it for whatever reason. Getting it doesn't seem to be a problem because 98% admit to using birth control.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

I still take issue with your assumptions that teens will have sex. I think you underestimate the countless teens who resist peer pressure and don't engage in high-risk sexual behavior.

It's not an assumption... it's a statistical fact. We can even put percentages on it, but what those are depend on the details of the question (let's say "always more than 60%").

Further: Abstinence-only sex-ed does nothing to reduce that percentage.

I think that if you treat teens like animals (by saying, "There's no way you're not going to have sex, it's unavoidable") then I think they will begin to act like animals. But if parents, teachers, mentors, etc. place high standards on kids, treating them as adults and supporting and encouraging them, then they can begin to act like adults. If much is expected of them, I think a majority of teens will rise to the challenge.

*That* is an assumption. Show me the statistical example.