[Bryan]

So Israel and Hamas are at it again after Hamas ended a cease-fire by firing rockets into Israel a few days ago. now Israel has responded with a heavy hand.

Thoughts?

[Epaphras]

We must pray (and work for) peace in that region. It is so sad to see the diplomatic process disrupted by hardliners (on both sides).

I know someone who thinks Israel will launch a full-out assault on Iran and her allies in order to draw U.S. forces into Armageddon before Bush leaves office, because he believes that Israel believes Obama won't be as supportive of Israel as the Bush administration was. I think it's a bit far-fetched but I wouldn't put it past our government to attack Iran through Israel. We send Israel a blank check as it is.

But like I said: the solution lies in diplomacy, and taking on the hard-line elements in both camps. Hard-core Zionists, Islamic extremists, Palestinian hyper-nationals, etc. all need to be controlled and kept out of the way of peace, somehow.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

But like I said: the solution lies in diplomacy, and taking on the hard-line elements in both camps. Hard-core Zionists, Islamic extremists, Palestinian hyper-nationals, etc. all need to be controlled and kept out of the way of peace, somehow.

The key problem is that Israel is managing to isolate the moderates by bombing indiscriminately a place that is likely one of the most densly populated in the world.

Five girls were murdered in their sleep yesterday by Israeli bombs; made, bought and sold to Israel by the good ol' USA. One Bedouin died as a result of Hamas rockets. I'm pretty angry; what must it be like for people who have to bury these kids? And we're supposed to be surprised when we find a new generation of radicalized youths in the region?

Five little girls. I saw them on Channel 4 tonight. American bombs. American jets. The only difference is the flag on the tail. For some strange reason, I feel compelled to go read Lady MacBeth.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

For some strange reason, I feel compelled to go read Lady MacBeth.

All my pretty ones?
Did you say all? O hell-kite! All?
What, all my pretty chickens and their dam
At one fell swoop?

[Jeffrey]

Perhaps all we (the US) can do is stop supplying the war gear.

[Iceman-bass14]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

Five little girls. I saw them on Channel 4 tonight. American bombs. American jets. The only difference is the flag on the tail. For some strange reason, I feel compelled to go read Lady MacBeth.

That and the fact that it probably wasnt American pilots...

[OneHope]

Israel has said they will stop when the rockets stop. The rockets aren't going to stop as long as the bombing continues. Honestly, why do we keep giving them weapons?

[TheProdigalModern]

I'm pissed that there are people on this side of the Atlantic rejoicing about this because of their goofy end-times ideas. Yeah, I know a few.

Lord, have mercy.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by Vershal

I'm pissed that there are people on this side of the Atlantic rejoicing about this because of their goofy end-times ideas. Yeah, I know a few.

Tell them to give you all their worldly posessions... at least those that they won't need over the next (how long till the rapture?).

I've never believed that 90% of the "end is nigh" people actually, truely believe it. Certainly few if any have ever been willing to actually bet their savings on it.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Bryan

So Israel and Hamas are at it again after Hamas ended a cease-fire by firing rockets into Israel a few days ago. now Israel has responded with a heavy hand.

Just a clarification: the official cease-fire between Hamas and Israel had expired before Hamas fired their rockets. They didn't violate a cease-fire as much as act once the agreed time period was over.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7804051.stm

[mulletman]

Originally Posted by Iceman-bass14

That and the fact that it probably wasnt American pilots...

With American jets comes American training..... So in all honesty, it doesn't really matter.

[JerryLove]

Our support of Isreal is pretty neutral on our "evil scale" compared to our support of Sadam, or the Shaw of Iran, or the coups in Nicuragua, Paraguey, etc, or our support of terrorists in Afghanistan (the ones in the 80s.. which are the same ones as today), or drug-dealers in Coloumbia, or Contra terrorists, etc.

[The wirerat]

First of all, the jets they are flying over there are made by American companies. The companies who manufacture those planes make them for whoever buys them. That is, as long as they are recognized governments. Forcing these companies to make aircraft only for the US is wrong. The point is, what the Israelis fly has nothing to do with the US as a government being involved in it.
Secondly, I am all for the Hamas being absolutely annihilated, but I know that will never happen, because they multiply pretty quick. I think we are going to continue to see an increasing amount of violence in the Middle East until the point when some country gets nuked out of existence. The Middle East is violent, always has been, always will be.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

First of all, the jets they are flying over there are made by American companies. The companies who manufacture those planes make them for whoever buys them. That is, as long as they are recognized governments. Forcing these companies to make aircraft only for the US is wrong.

Two comments:

1) That ship has sailed. The US controls what technology can be exported anywhere. For example: No one at all is allowed to buy F22s.

2) So you would say it was wrong to prohibit a company that makes nuclear bombs from selling on to AlQuieda? I doubt that. I think you support all sorts of limits on sale.

The point is, what the Israelis fly has nothing to do with the US as a government being involved in it.

The US government is a major funder.

Does a gun store that sells knowingly to a convicted felon bear responsability? Does the guy that gave an automatic weapon to a 7 year old (who died BTW)? Of course giving a weapon to someone you know will use it wrongly means you share the responsablity.

Secondly, I am all for the Hamas being absolutely annihilated,

Cool. Let's kill everyone on the planet. That will get them. Can I start with you.

"Wait!" I hear you cry? You are not in Hamas? Wow. Neither are most of the people in Gaza.

but I know that will never happen, because they multiply pretty quick.

What's funny about this rather offensive statement (I recall Nazi propiganda saying that about Jews), is that it's true in a way very different from how I believe you intended it.

Hamas, being an organization, grows by recruitment. The devistation that is Gaza, and the killing of innocents by those Hamas opposes does indeed bring in recruits.

I think we are going to continue to see an increasing amount of violence in the Middle East until the point when some country gets nuked out of existence. The Middle East is violent, always has been, always will be.

Isreal is small and there is at least one nuclear power in the region that doesn't like them.

But I doubt anything would end if that happened either.

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

Secondly, I am all for the Hamas being absolutely annihilated, but I know that will never happen, because they multiply pretty quick. I think we are going to continue to see an increasing amount of violence in the Middle East until the point when some country gets nuked out of existence. The Middle East is violent, always has been, always will be.

Would you have said the same thing about the pre-1920's Irish Republican movement (from whence the 'original' IRA) or the American revolutionaries?

It is very likely that neither the modern United States nor the modern Republic of Ireland would exist today were it not for these groups fighting back against what was felt as an unwanted foreign invader or influence. Certainly in the latter's case, even the declaration of limited powers of a 'free state' (which was still subject to the Monarch of England) came as the result of years (centuries, in fact) of bloody fighting and resistance to English rule.

Who is 'right' in these sorts of conflicts is just a matter of perspective. Palestinians (rightly) think believe that Israel is trying to disenfranchise them of what few scraps of land they have left. Hamas is the (violent) representation of that belief.

The Irish republican fighters prior to the creation of the Saorstát Éireann and the outbreak of the Irish Civil War, the American Revolutionaries, and Hamas all have a common thread - they want an end to what they see as a foreign occupation. Call for their annhililation and you might as well not light your fireworks on July 4th.