[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by OneHope

I disagree. Leaders need followers. These terrorist organizations need to recruit ordinary people, notice that it isn't Bin Laden out there committing suicide. We need to ask what is driving people to take up this ideology so fervently. People don't suddenly wake up and think 'hmm, I think I'm going to give up my life to drive Uganda off the map'. The ideology was created out of Israeli oppression and humiliation, people were driven to it because of Israeli oppression and humiliation.

I'm not sure where you're from but lets say you're from the States. Let's say that the European countries got together and decided to give the entire United States to the Swedes. Let's say that the Swedes came and forced all the Americans into New Jersey. They then built a wall around New Jersey and controlled supply and movement in and out. The Swedes were supported by most of the world in this action. Would you not fight back?

At the same time, you can't just grab average Joe off the street and brainwash until he's a terrorist. There has to be some commonality, which in MOST cases tends to be the Islamic religion. There have been cases in Palestine where the parents send their Muslim son off to a school so he can become an imam, and later they find out he's been arrested in connection with a bombing. This man had gone to a school that had extremist imams, and they used his faith to whip him into this frenzy.
What it seems that you are saying is that the terrorists who do suicide bombings are just these blind followers. I disagree. *Edit* i just realized I made an absolute statement. I beleive that MOST of the terrorists who conduct the suicide bombings are not just blind followers, however I do believe that some of them are genuinely blinded. Its hard to prove (suicide bombers are hard to talk to after the fact) so I'm not going to push the point further.
As far as your analogy for the States goes, I'm not sure it works. I believe you are referencing the way that Israel became a nation again. Imagine if the illegals South Americans in our country decided that the area of New Mexico was now theirs. They build a wall around it, restrict trade in and out, and establish their own government. Then Canada, Mexico, and most of Europe agrees to recognize New Mexico as a new nation. That's pretty much what happened 60 years ago when Israel signed its charter. Obviously, the United States would never let this happen. However, what I was pointing out is that this charter signing took place 60 years ago. No one has the power to tell Israel that they are no longer a nation, and to force them to relinquish the land. Even if someone did, it would be a nightmare making that happen.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

At the same time, you can't just grab average Joe off the street and brainwash until he's a terrorist. There has to be some commonality, which in MOST cases tends to be the Islamic religion.

A lot of the most recent generation of terrorists are Muslim, the current largest groudn to grow them on is in prodominantly Muslim areas... though you'll find plenty of Christian ones in Africa and South America.

There was a time in living memory when the number one source of terrorism against the US was Puerto-Rico seperatists... and there are certainly plenty of counter-examples from the contras to the IRA to a good portion of the American revolutionaries.

There have been cases in Palestine where the parents send their Muslim son off to a school so he can become an imam, and later they find out he's been arrested in connection with a bombing. This man had gone to a school that had extremist imams, and they used his faith to whip him into this frenzy.

Ayrian nation summer camp?

What it seems that you are saying is that the terrorists who do suicide bombings are just these blind followers. I disagree. *Edit* i just realized I made an absolute statement. I beleive that MOST of the terrorists who conduct the suicide bombings are not just blind followers, however I do believe that some of them are genuinely blinded. Its hard to prove (suicide bombers are hard to talk to after the fact) so I'm not going to push the point further.

I think that, among terrorists, your greatest concentration of "blind followers" are the suicide bombers. Those with ulterior motivations don't usually kill themselves.

As far as your analogy for the States goes, I'm not sure it works. I believe you are referencing the way that Israel became a nation again. Imagine if the illegals South Americans in our country decided that the area of New Mexico was now theirs. They build a wall around it, restrict trade in and out, and establish their own government. Then Canada, Mexico, and most of Europe agrees to recognize New Mexico as a new nation. That's pretty much what happened 60 years ago when Israel signed its charter. Obviously, the United States would never let this happen. However, what I was pointing out is that this charter signing took place 60 years ago. No one has the power to tell Israel that they are no longer a nation, and to force them to relinquish the land. Even if someone did, it would be a nightmare making that happen.

So then this bordered region that South Americans decided to setup inside America would be legal and no one would have the right to force them to relinquish the land?

How many years (or is it number of states recognizing) does it take for that to be true? Can the ex-Cubans just delcare Miami their soverign soil? How many countries would have to back them to make it so? For that matter: how many backed the confederacy? How long had the Native Americans had the land when we showed up?

[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

So then this bordered region that South Americans decided to setup inside America would be legal and no one would have the right to force them to relinquish the land?

How many years (or is it number of states recognizing) does it take for that to be true? Can the ex-Cubans just delcare Miami their soverign soil? How many countries would have to back them to make it so? For that matter: how many backed the confederacy? How long had the Native Americans had the land when we showed up?

Well obviously the United States would have power to stop that. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, they didn't, besides the fact that Israel had immediate support from the U.S. and the U.N. any subsequent wars that Israel fought were one because of that support.
In my analogy, Mexico, Canada, and Europe would have had to provide support to New Mexico otherwise it would have been crushed.
Its not legal, it wasn't right, but it has been done. You insist on crying over spilt milk. There is no time period that makes it anymore right, but at this stage in the game, what are you suggesting be done? If the Palestinians were handed control of Israel (a power no one has), I have reason to believe we would witness a huge genocide.
How are you suggesting we solve that issue?

[mulletman]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

If the Palestinians were handed control of Israel (a power no one has), I have reason to believe we would witness a huge genocide.

So what is it that we have now? Granted, perhaps it isn't what you'd call "huge," but indiscriminately bombing Gaza seems headed in that direction....

Originally Posted by The wirerat

How are you suggesting we solve that issue?

Stop giving massive amounts of financial and military aid to a group that has shown they cannot responsibly handle it?

[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by mulletman

So what is it that we have now? Granted, perhaps it isn't what you'd call "huge," but indiscriminately bombing Gaza seems headed in that direction....

The reason they are bombing Gaza is because they are trying to shut down Hamas. The bombing is absolutely stupid because it will end up killing more civilians than actual terrorists. The only way to stop them is by going in, which is what it appears that Israel is about to do.

Stop giving massive amounts of financial and military aid to a group that has shown they cannot responsibly handle it?

That won't stop them from bombing. We aren't the only nation producing munitions. The financial aid should have stopped long ago, the US has this retarded policy of giving away money when we are in massive debt ourselves. Personally I am all for stopping all financial aid that is flowing out of our country through government means.

[mulletman]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

The reason they are bombing Gaza is because they are trying to shut down Hamas. The bombing is absolutely stupid because it will end up killing more civilians than actual terrorists. The only way to stop them is by going in, which is what it appears that Israel is about to do.

Well, if Israel does what you suggest and "goes in," then what? Who is a "terrorist?" Call me a cynic, but I'd say that would look an awful lot like the genocide you mentioned in an earlier post.

Originally Posted by The wirerat

That won't stop them from bombing. We aren't the only nation producing munitions. The financial aid should have stopped long ago, the US has this retarded policy of giving away money when we are in massive debt ourselves. Personally I am all for stopping all financial aid that is flowing out of our country through government means.

Well, it might not stop them from bombing. That is true. However, it would at least make our nation, and my tax money, not responsible for their acts of government-initiated terrorism.

[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by mulletman

Well, if Israel does what you suggest and "goes in," then what? Who is a "terrorist?" Call me a cynic, but I'd say that would look an awful lot like the genocide you mentioned in an earlier post.

The obvious problem here is that Hamas is a terrorist organization, yet at the same point, has a lot of political power in Palestine. So the question is: "Is Israel going in an invasion?" I mean the point of Israel going in is to stop rocket attacks from a group that may or may not support the Palestinian political views. So are they invading Palestine, or protecting themselves?
I think we all agree that the rocket attacks need to stop right? If I'm wrong let me know. I know we also believe that the bombing of Gaza needs to stop. In order for the bombing to stop, the rocket attacks need to stop.
In order for the rocket attacks to stop, one of two things need to happen. 1) Hamas needs to be completely wiped out, or 2) Israel needs to disband as a nation and force their citizens to move elsewhere.
I'm not sure the second option can be done. It kind of leaves the first option.
I do agree with you though, Ben. If the bombing continues without Israel presenting some other way to stop the rocket attacks, they could be accused of committing genocide.
Remember that not only are they dealing with a land war, but a hatred between people groups. The Palestinians hate the Israelis. We cannot coopt some deal where Israel becomes part of Palestine or vice versa. The end result would be horrible.

Well, it might not stop them from bombing. That is true. However, it would at least make our nation, and my tax money, not responsible for their acts of government-initiated terrorism.

Like I said, we need to stop ALL foreign aid, regardless of destination. We are in no financial position to do so. That's just from the financial standpoint. Otherwise I agree with you.
What I was understanding was that halting aid from the States would stop the bombing, that's not true.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

I think we all agree that the rocket attacks need to stop right? If I'm wrong let me know. I know we also believe that the bombing of Gaza needs to stop. In order for the bombing to stop, the rocket attacks need to stop.
In order for the rocket attacks to stop, one of two things need to happen. 1) Hamas needs to be completely wiped out, or 2) Israel needs to disband as a nation and force their citizens to move elsewhere.

I believe you've created a false dilemma. I think it is possible to have a functioning government not hostile to Isreal in Gaza. I believe that it is the situation in which the Palestinians live, and a lack of an attempt to manage that, which results in the support of Hamas and rocket attacks.

The Palestinians hate the Israelis. We cannot coopt some deal where Israel becomes part of Palestine or vice versa. The end result would be horrible.

I don't think this is any more accurate than to say that the Irish hate the English.

Like I said, we need to stop ALL foreign aid, regardless of destination. We are in no financial position to do so. That's just from the financial standpoint.

It's a different argument: so let's just say "I disagree"

What I was understanding was that halting aid from the States would stop the bombing, that's not true.

1) How do you keep bombing without bombs.
2) such a consequence would likely be more than enough pressure to get Isreal to stop bombing in order to restore funding.

You insist on crying over spilt milk.

I thought "who is right" was part of the question... otherwise why care about it at all?

How are you suggesting we solve that issue?

Make Palestine prosperous and in charge of their territories... remove incentive.

A truely pragamatic Isreal would simply withdraw to a single contiguious land in the least contested of the territories... of course the same could be said of a pragmatic Palestine.

[OneHope]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

At the same time, you can't just grab average Joe off the street and brainwash until he's a terrorist.

My point exactly. The thing is is that this isn't average Joe, this is Joe who has lost family members and maybe his house.

Originally Posted by The wirerat

There has to be some commonality, which in MOST cases tends to be the Islamic religion. There have been cases in Palestine where the parents send their Muslim son off to a school so he can become an imam, and later they find out he's been arrested in connection with a bombing. This man had gone to a school that had extremist imams, and they used his faith to whip him into this frenzy.

And yet there are very peaceful Muslims out there. Christians have been 'whipped into a frenzy' if you want to put it like that and have committed terrorist acts as well. My point is that there are other things which cause people to interpret their faith in this violent light.

Originally Posted by The wirerat

However, what I was pointing out is that this charter signing took place 60 years ago. No one has the power to tell Israel that they are no longer a nation, and to force them to relinquish the land. Even if someone did, it would be a nightmare making that happen.

No, and I agree that the solution is not to kick the Israelis off the land and give it back to the Palestinians. What needs to happen is that both sides need to start integrating with the other.

[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

I believe you've created a false dilemma. I think it is possible to have a functioning government not hostile to Isreal in Gaza. I believe that it is the situation in which the Palestinians live, and a lack of an attempt to manage that, which results in the support of Hamas and rocket attacks.

I sincerely doubt that. Both Fatah and Hamas, seem to have political control in Palestine, and they both want the same thing, although they are also fighting within themselves. The people groups hate each other, so I don't think there is a way to live side by side peacefully.

1) How do you keep bombing without bombs.
2) such a consequence would likely be more than enough pressure to get Isreal to stop bombing in order to restore funding.

The US is not the only munitions maker in the world.

Make Palestine prosperous and in charge of their territories... remove incentive.

They are in charge of their territories. Israel was at one time in control of Gaza and the West Bank. Now those pieces of land have been withdrawn from, and Israel is now protecting it's own land.

A truely pragamatic Isreal would simply withdraw to a single contiguious land in the least contested of the territories... of course the same could be said of a pragmatic Palestine.

Where is that? The contested land IS Israel. Palestine has the West Bank and Gaza. They want Israel. Its been that way since 1948.

Originally Posted by OneHope

My point exactly. The thing is is that this isn't average Joe, this is Joe who has lost family members and maybe his house.

I can agree with that. Notice I said MOST terrorists. We cannot put a label and say "This is a terrorist," there are too many how's and why's to make one for it.

And yet there are very peaceful Muslims out there. Christians have been 'whipped into a frenzy' if you want to put it like that and have committed terrorist acts as well. My point is that there are other things which cause people to interpret their faith in this violent light.

Very true about the Muslims. I very much hesitate to say that all Muslims are extremists. I have Muslim friends who would never subscribe to the ideology a terrorist does. In fact some of them look down upon those who do.

No, and I agree that the solution is not to kick the Israelis off the land and give it back to the Palestinians. What needs to happen is that both sides need to start integrating with the other.

That's not going to happen. We are dealing with Arabs hating Jews, in the most basic sense of the problem. It's never stopped, and it never will. This hatred has been going on since Biblical times. Integration of the two countries is next to impossible.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

I sincerely doubt that. Both Fatah and Hamas, seem to have political control in Palestine, and they both want the same thing, although they are also fighting within themselves. The people groups hate each other, so I don't think there is a way to live side by side peacefully.

I think your position that the groups in question will not be satisfied with any two-state solution is false.

The US is not the only munitions maker in the world.

So what?

They are in charge of their territories. Israel was at one time in control of Gaza and the West Bank. Now those pieces of land have been withdrawn from, and Israel is now protecting it's own land.

That's BS andf you know it. They aren't in charge and never have been. Isreal has exercised control since at least 1957.

Besides that: I didn't say "put them in charge". I said "make them prosperous".

Where is that? The contested land IS Israel. Palestine has the West Bank and Gaza. They want Israel. Its been that way since 1948.

There's quite a bit of unused, empty land without the historical claims inherent in the areas being discussed.

Personally, were I the dictator of Isreal, I'd be thinking about getting Canada to carve out a chunk for me.

That's not going to happen. We are dealing with Arabs hating Jews, in the most basic sense of the problem. It's never stopped, and it never will. This hatred has been going on since Biblical times. Integration of the two countries is next to impossible.

You lack an understanding of history. The Arabs and Jews have historically (certainly from 500AD till colonialization) had a very good relationship. During the days of the silk road the Jews became quite wealthy exactly because they were the ones liked by both the Arabs and the Europeans.

Unless you want to go back to millitary conflicts between Babyolon and Isreal (and the Isrealis actually liked the Persians when they conquered), the issue is a relatively modern one.

[tranquill]

Hamas now*plans major suicide attacks inside Israel. The group actually warned Muslims who are foreign citizens to leave Israel immediately: http://samsonblinded.org/news/hamas-...ee-israel-5473

[OneHope]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

That's not going to happen. We are dealing with Arabs hating Jews, in the most basic sense of the problem. It's never stopped, and it never will. This hatred has been going on since Biblical times. Integration of the two countries is next to impossible.

I disagree. The most obvious counter-example is Northern Ireland. Since Protestantism came into existence pretty much, there has been Protestant-Catholic hatred and violence in the British Isles and in the late 20th century Northern Ireland. At the beginning of the 20th century people may have said that "we are dealing with Protestants and Catholics, in the most basic sense of the problem. It's never stopped, and it never will. Integration of the two countries is next to impossible".

I tend to think though that unfortunately the violence needs to reach a point where people just begin to say 'enough is enough' on and to both sides before there can be peace. I think at the same time, the Western world needs to stop unconditionally supporting Israel over Palestine. Israel needs to know that if it continues to provoke and oppress the Palestinians then it will lose support and the Palestinians need to know that the Western world will support them if they pursue peaceful methods.

Originally Posted by tranquill

Hamas now*plans major suicide attacks inside Israel. The group actually warned Muslims who are foreign citizens to leave Israel immediately: http://samsonblinded.org/news/hamas-...ee-israel-5473

Are you surprised?

[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by OneHope

I disagree. The most obvious counter-example is Northern Ireland. Since Protestantism came into existence pretty much, there has been Protestant-Catholic hatred and violence in the British Isles and in the late 20th century Northern Ireland. At the beginning of the 20th century people may have said that "we are dealing with Protestants and Catholics, in the most basic sense of the problem. It's never stopped, and it never will. Integration of the two countries is next to impossible".

I tend to think though that unfortunately the violence needs to reach a point where people just begin to say 'enough is enough' on and to both sides before there can be peace. I think at the same time, the Western world needs to stop unconditionally supporting Israel over Palestine. Israel needs to know that if it continues to provoke and oppress the Palestinians then it will lose support and the Palestinians need to know that the Western world will support them if they pursue peaceful methods.

What if we withdrew all support from any side of the issue? It has been suggested we stop supporting it. Maybe if they found out that the United States refused to give any money, food, financial, or military aid they would play nice. Of course, being the cynic that I am, I doubt removing or physical and political support would do anything.

Are you surprised?

Not at all. In fact this is nothing new. They've been doing it all ready, so why is this announcement now so freaking important?

[Nate]

Originally Posted by tranquill

Hamas now*plans major suicide attacks inside Israel. The group actually warned Muslims who are foreign citizens to leave Israel immediately: http://samsonblinded.org/news/hamas-...ee-israel-5473

Wow. That site is worse than Fox News.