[Pre-Ex-Girlfriend]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

While I agree with many of your points, Scripture is fairly specific: Colossians and Ephesians tell women to submit, and do not tell husbands to submit. Husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loves the Church, which is a big charge, but still: only someone with heavy presuppositions would try to make the phrases "Wives, submit" and "Husbands, love" equal. Are there any Greek scholars who could correct me? I do not know Greek. But if English translations are to be trusted, two imperatives are issued.

When it comes the Ephesians passage, I have always thought that verse 5:21 makes it clear who is to submit. "... Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." Sadly, this verse is often left out of discussion about marriage because of the modern headings our Bible's have been given. I'm no Greek scholar, but to me this verse points to mutual submission, with the verses that follow simply elaborating on that. And anywa, if the definition of submit is to yield one's own rights to another, in that case it is the husband who has to do the most submitting, being called to give up even his life.

[Epaphras]

Originally Posted by Sean

Even those fights about nothing are about something, you just don't always know what it is. The issue being fought over may be nothing, but there is some deeper reason you're fighting over the shopping list or the laundry or cleaning or the time you're leaving or whatever other meaningless fight you have.

True, good point.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

While I agree with many of your points, Scripture is fairly specific: Colossians and Ephesians tell women to submit, and do not tell husbands to submit. Husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loves the Church, which is a big charge, but still: only someone with heavy presuppositions would try to make the phrases "Wives, submit" and "Husbands, love" equal. Are there any Greek scholars who could correct me? I do not know Greek. But if English translations are to be trusted, two imperatives are issued.

It's not so much that I don't think Scripture gives any specific commands so much as I think that the overarching theme of the new covenant is one of Christian life as holistic sanctification rather than legal regulation.

The old covenant was littered with specifics, with different commands for different years, seasons, weeks, days, and even hours of the day. Then, on top of that, you had different commands for men, women, children, priests, virgins, widows, orphans, etc.

The new covenant, by contrast, seems to blanket all the world with a single requirement: Love the Lord your God will all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. When Paul writes about submission, he uses so many different contexts, that you have to wonder whether it's the context or the general concept he's really after.

Christ repeatedly denounced the Pharisees for bringing up trivial minutia from the Law to try and trip Him up. His response was never to explain the details of the situation, although as the Author of the rulebook He certainly would have been capable. Rather, He always took the "between the horns" approach to their dilemma, and smashed the entire concept of situational regulation with the hammer of holistic righteousness.

However, to pooh-pooh "marriage advice in general" seems like a hasty generalization. Perhaps it was just meant to shock us, to get us to consider your point. There may be better ways to get us to think about this, however...because I think "rule of thumb" advice (as opposed to universals) is what I generally see in Christian marriage seminars and books, and I think "rule of thumb" advice is healthy.

The problem with rules of thumb is that thumbs are all different. The "cubit" as a unit of measurement ("rule of arm"?) was useful for awhile, but eventually had to give way to a universal standard that could be applied to every situation. Unfortunately, the universal standard is now almost useless in practical matters because nobody can accurately estimate it, whereas everyone still has a forearm. It's ironic that soft guidelines are more useful than hard rules, but less applicable.

I'm not pooh-poohing the idea of marriage advice so much as the idea of marriage advice. I think the general concepts taught in Scripture for right conduct toward your fellow man are sufficient, with the small addendum of the "wives submit / husbands love" dichotomy that everyone loves to point out to make themselves feel better about their failure by saying how difficult their own gender's directive is, to ensure happy and healthy marriages. God, if I could just love my wife as myself and submit to her out of reverence to Christ. Do I really need more than that?

However, I think spouses should seek martial advice from their local church, that way there's a higher body watching over their relationship. Were I married, my first instinct would be to keep all our quarrels private, but that's not a Christian mindset. A Christian marriage is sanctioned, monitored, and mentored by the local church.

I would agree with what Sean cautioned: martial arguments are rarely about "nothing," and instead are emotional expressions of deeper issues. When two spouses come to quarreling over a "small issue," it's likely because they have been wanting to address a bigger issue but have not.

Hahaha. Freudian slips?

[Guitarbite1985]

I know this is an old forum and it has been a while since I was on last, but thank you guys so much for your advice. I really helped me put things into perspective. I'm blessed to get advice from you guys, because I've been getting advice (and slack) from divorced individuals and other people who necessarily are not happy with their marriage.

[mtman]

Focus your marriage on Christ.