[H.M. Murdock]

I'm not sure if this belongs here, but... yeah. Food for thought/discussion.

[leiarose]

Excellent article - I agree 100% with the dangers of a "Patriarchal Movement". I relate to much of that, explaining why at 22 I still feel completely unprepared for life.

I have seen this to the nth degree in many other families, particularly affecting the young ladies - 15-25 years of age still at home and under "father's authority" until someone comes along to claim them. They are not encouraged to go to college, learn a trade, work a job, improve their educations, etc., because they are "meant to cook and clean as a wife and mother." I actually haven't seen it as much with men but that's just my experience - I'm sure it's as relevant.

[Art]

Really good article.

[beanbag]

this is very interesting, especially from the perspective of someone who comes from an inherently patriarchal culture. I was homeschooled most of my life, but I was never smothered like the kids mentioned in this article. granted, I wasn't allowed to date as a teen, but I had my own thoughts on that anyways. (against dating at that age, of my own volition.) my parents never held me back academically, especially my father, whose culture I live in. those of you who know me in any small degree know that although I am American by nationality, I was not raised as an American, and my culture is certainly very traditional and very patriarchal. even so, my father has always pushed me to be the best I can be in and out of the classroom. I am fairly certain that his greatest joy in my academic career is that I have decided to pursue a doctorate because that is his dream for me. I am also still considering a law degree (in addition) which is an even bigger joy to him because that was his first choice for me, although he wouldn't force me if it boiled down to that. this is actually a very typical attitude toward women as well as men in my culture, pushed by the patriarchs themselves, that women be as highly educated as possible. women in patriarchal societies may be oppressed overseas but the families that come here are here for a reason--there are little opportunities for their daughters back home, so they come here, retaining their patriarchal structure, but also able to foster academic excellence and financial independence in their girls who go on to become engineers, doctors, lawyers, pharmacists, businesswomen, etc.

I think there are a lot of things about patriarchal societies that people do not understand, both those who speak out against them and those who try to imitate them without intimate knowledge of patriarchal family dynamics. it is true that the father is the head of the household and final authority rests in his hands. however, full responsibility for the actions of his children also rests on his head, and if a child goes astray, it is not the child who is blamed, it is the father and mother, the bulk of the blame being placed on the father. most children in these situations--especially in such a free country as this, where we can ultimately choose for ourselves--take our fathers' wishes into extremely strong consideration. there is a balance that exists, though, and these imitative American patriarchal societies seem to be unaware of the balance that must exist between parental authority and child freedom. my father would be well within his rights to insist I go to law school, for example, but he would never do that to me because his first concern is my well-being and happiness. it's not because of his role as "king" as that article put it that he is concerned with my well-being above all but because of his role as my father who loves me. he has no problems forbidding professions or courses of study that he feels are "beneath me" (in which subject we do have some friction, but ultimately as strong willed and stubborn as I am, I do defer to him in) but he would never force a given course of study.

as for dating/marriage...well, I haven't been there yet, but I will admit that this is a more difficult subject. there is internal conflict in my culture about the nature of marriage and how things should be arranged. I know my dad would never force me to marry anyone I didn't want to marry. I decided to test him last year and see what he would say about different situations, and his answer boiled down to whatever made me happiest would make him happiest. even in stricter families (because I will admit my family is somewhat lax, comparatively) like my cousin's family, her father censored the pool of men she was allowed to see (no one in their twenties; he is from the 10-15 year age difference generation) and essentially arranged her marriage to a man in his mid-thirties who everyone thought was good. he was recommended by my uncle as a successful man who could comfortably support my cousin, which is a pressing concern for fathers, but she ultimately decided after getting to know him better and starting to plan their future together that she could never be happy with him. her father supported her when she broke off her engagement, and allowed her to choose for herself the next time she met a man. she ended up with a man who is also older and successful, but without the hidden negative qualities the first man had. so you see...even though she was allowed freedom to choose whomever she pleased, she ended up following very closely her father's original preferences. to be totally fair to her dad, the first guy didn't show his true side until very far into the engagement, and everyone--including my uncle who recommended him--was extremely disappointed in him and have actually broken off contact with him although he is related to my uncle. my father is not going to choose my future husband for me, and he will support me if I decide to never marry, but if I do get married, in all honesty it will probably be someone similar to what my dad would've chosen for me anyways, not because I was pressured into it but because it will be someone who can provide for me the way my dad has provided for me.

anyways, I realize this is really long, but I feel like there are so many misconceptions about patriarchal societies, both from opponents and from imitators. to summarize for those of you who are less patient: there is a delicate internal balance that most outsiders are not aware of; there is a great deal of love involved in parental authority and decisions; and women are not oppressed in the way that the imitators here oppress their women--education is first and foremost in importance, and the men will do all in their power to further not only the boys of the culture but the girls of the culture. it's actually a little bit embarrassing how proud my dad is of my educational path and how proud all of his male friends are as well. I mean, granted all the women are very supportive of me as well, but it's the men who are approaching me and telling me of such and such connection that might be able to help me with tuition or some scholarship that I am eligible for. one of the men my dad is friends with even came up to me after church and said, "write me a letter when you're accepted and I'll see how much money I can gather in a scholarship for you!" and another one told me about a fund that could help with a portion of my tuition. this male-dominated society is actually invested very deeply in the education of women, and while it is a positive attribute in the minds of the men with marriagable sons and the old women from whom they ask for suggestions to be beautiful, it's even better to be educated and successful. (of course, the jackpot is beautiful and educated and successful, but y'know.)

anyways. I tend to get very in-depth on subjects that are close to my heart, and I figured that true patriarchs deserved some defense in the face of the cultish patriarchal organizations here in the states. I'd be happy to clarify anything that's not clear or explain anything further.

[H.M. Murdock]

I would just like to say that I'm not intrinsically opposed to a patriarchal authority system. I think in most instances it's wrong, such as in the examples held within the linked article. To my mind, though, there is some difference between a patriarchal system and a patriarchal mindset. When command becomes a necessity and privilege for a father, he is not fit to burden such a responsibility. When command is required of the father because it is a way he can help his child, and when he is not of the mindset that he is "the" ruler of the family, I think there is much more room for success.

[tigerfan88]

Great article, and very true in some cases. While I was encouraged by my mother to go to college (and currently am a student), I was also brought up very strictly (no dating as a teen). My mom expected me to go to college nearby, to stay at home for my college years, and to even avoid dating until I was out of school. In some sense, it was a cloistered homeschooling environment--mom has wanted me to do everything according to her will, not what I feel God is calling me to do. Don't get me wrong, mom is an amazing woman who has a deep faith in God, but she feels like she can keep me from making some of the mistakes my siblings did simply by continuing to be just as strict as she was when I was under 18. The thing is, I'm 19 now, financially responsible for schooling, clothing and food (with the exception of dinner and breakfast, lol), and am able to make my own decisions. It's been difficult getting her to see it, but little by little, I think she realizes that I am breaking away from the sheltered homeschooling environment and am growing up to be my own person, and will make mistakes because it's human nature. Is she happy when I disagree with her? No, but I think she is glad that I do so in a very respectful manner and that I trust her enough to tell her practically every aspect of my life. She also realizes that my growing up and breaking away is actually a GOOD thing.

My mom has even admitted to me a few times that she regrets how sheltered I was, how strict she was. I think at some point in time, these cloistered homeschool syndrome parents will regret their decision to bring their kids up this way. Maybe not while their children are still kids, but at some point, they're going to look back on it with regret.

I definitely do not agree with cloistered homeschool syndrome, as I think it has a very harmful effect on the kids themselves. I know in my case, it's taken almost two years (and will inevitably take more) to shake off the negative effects of it (feeling like I need mom's approval with everything in my life, feeling like if I do something she won't like, I can't talk to her about it etc.) I think if these parents understood the harm they are doing to their kids, they'd never want to do this.

[bravesfan007]

Great article and holds many valid points. I can kind of relate to it because in some ways I'm still in that current situation, except for the fact that I wasn't home-schooled. However, still during college my mother has tried to rule over my life.

Originally Posted by tigerfan88

My mom expected me to go to college nearby, to stay at home for my college years, and to even avoid dating until I was out of school. In some sense, it was a cloistered homeschooling environment--mom has wanted me to do everything according to her will, not what I feel God is calling me to do. Don't get me wrong, mom is an amazing woman who has a deep faith in God, but she feels like she can keep me from making some of the mistakes my siblings did simply by continuing to be just as strict as she was when I was under 18. The thing is, I'm 19 now, financially responsible for schooling, clothing and food (with the exception of dinner and breakfast, lol), and am able to make my own decisions. It's been difficult getting her to see it, but little by little, I think she realizes that I am breaking away from the sheltered homeschooling environment and am growing up to be my own person, and will make mistakes because it's human nature.

I understand all of this, especially the part about staying at home for college. I am currently doing that and don't regret doing it because I would've missed out on a lot of things if I would've left (like I wanted to). However, my mother did pull the thing of that she prayed that God would open doors and shut doors and was praying that I would end up at the school that I'm at now. I'm 21, will be 22 this month, still live at home with my parents and my mother still tries to convince me she knows what's best for my life. I mean, I'm getting ready to announce my decision to get engaged to my girlfriend, not because it's what I want, but also because I've prayed about it and I feel it's God's timing. With this though, I know I will get the speech about how it's important for me to stay in school and get my graduate degree before I get married. She thinks that I won't go back once I finish my bachelor's.

The only thing is though, is that I pretty much have to get my graduate degree. She tells my sister and I that they (my parents) just don't want us making the same mistakes that they did. By this I believe it's the fact of getting married so young (my mother was a L.P.N. and planned on continuing to become a R.N., but quit once she got married). It doesn't help that I bring up the fact that I've already accomplished more than both my parents have (I'll graduate college in May) because she says that marriage is what she wanted. She doesn't consider what my sister and I want in our own lives.

Wow, this has turned out to be a much longer post than I expected. In some ways it looks like a rant on my mother, but it's not. I'm just pointing out that this problem plagues families that don't home-school their children. I think it's a problem across the entire field of parents.

[Jeffrey]

I'm not sure it's any more a problem than "Worldly public school syndrome."

[H.M. Murdock]

"Worldly public school syndrome" isn't elevated in terms of moral bigotry to the level of being a holy crusade.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by H.M. Murdock

"Worldly public school syndrome" isn't elevated in terms of moral bigotry to the level of being a holy crusade.

It depends on who you know. I know people who are fervently against private and home education. They've said things such as "The only way for a teenager to learn how to reach others is to attend a public school."

There are also pro-private education folks who think that people who send their kids to public schools are throwing them to the wolves, and those who homeschool are robbing their kids of interaction with more qualified teachers.

The homeschoolers I personally know who are well-adjusted and successful far outweigh those I know who are not.

I wonder (and I'm not accusing anyone here of this) that we as American Christians feel "embarrassed" by over-sheltered Christian teens, but for some reason we're not as embarrassed by overly-worldly Christian teens.

[Art]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I wonder (and I'm not accusing anyone here of this) that we as American Christians feel "embarrassed" by over-sheltered Christian teens, but for some reason we're not as embarrassed by overly-worldly Christian teens.

I disagree with that sentiment, but I guess that would be based on personal experience.

[niangelo]

Interesting.

Honestly, even among most conservative, fundamental homeschoolers I know, I've never seen anything like that described in that article. I think it's incredibly rare - I don't know a single family that doesn't want their kids striking out, getting married and making a life for themselves as soon as possible.

[beanbag]

Originally Posted by niangelo

Interesting.

Honestly, even among most conservative, fundamental homeschoolers I know, I've never seen anything like that described in that article. I think it's incredibly rare - I don't know a single family that doesn't want their kids striking out, getting married and making a life for themselves as soon as possible.

I think it happens only in the strictest of the fundamental families. I am thinking of the (stereotypical) families who are usually very large and usually insist on the girls having very long hair and wearing very long skirts, and the boys being dressed in polos and khakis with 40s-style hair. I have seen hints of this kind of thing in publications like the CBD book list, both in the books recommended by the editors (complete with personal notes) and the notes and recommendations made by their children. of course, I can't say this with authority because I've chosen not to read the materials they recommend, but they do seem to be very similar to the people mentioned in the article just based on the things they write.

[Art]

I've definitely seen it. It is... extremely sad.

[MtlMom]

At the heart of it, I don't think this has anything to do with homeschooling or Christianity, and it certainly isn't anything new.

My husband's great-grandfather was a pharmacist. His sons became pharmacists and took over the family business. Their sons became pharmacists. My husband's parents, who were both pharmacists, did not push any of their four children to go into the family business (which my husband regrets occasionally, by the way).

Staying with the family business, whether it's farming, running a hardware store, or missionary work, is nothing new. People are often more comfortable doing what they know. People who want to break away from family traditions can usually do this.