[H.M. Murdock]

Bill, to say that the patriarchal movement is automatically physically abusive is an unwarranted statement. Leaders may advocate it, but that does not identify the majority. While I've met plenty of people who've gone through situations similar to yours, the family structure and subsequent domination is what defines the patriarchal movement, not the violence. Just to give this post some scope, I say this as someone who has interacted with thousands of homeschoolers, been around and observed hundreds of families, and was completely immersed in the neo-conservative homeschool culture most of his life. *wink*
Nobody's questioning your experiences, Bill, but many of Andrew and Laura's observations are valid.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

If you think this is your typical home-schooler, than I am sorry, but you are utterly clueless. Maybe in the circles you ran in, or in a particular area, but growing up I knew dozens of homeschool families over the years...

And I believe your anecdotal evidence to be utterly clueless. We can do this all day. In my experience, and the experience of my wife, both of us who grew up in homeschool circles, this has been the case. This includes hundreds of homeschool families, not my group down the street. This is pervasive in my experience, not the exception.

I went to Moody, which has a fair share of homeschoolers, no doubt. The ones who had been raised in this sort of environment were rare. Very rare. I grew up in ATI, the Bill Gothard strain of homeschooling, and my family hung out with the Lindvalls so believe me when I say, I know this movement. Lindvall is the first one I heard actually preach this movement and as best as I can tell, was for a while at least its leader.

I grew up listening to Lindvall. My parents adhered to his beliefs for a couple of years. I know EXACTLY what this movement is, and I know what it is not.

However, you are looking for oppression and malice, and honestly viewing your parents through eyes of disdain. Did they do a good job? It sounds it, from what you say. Give them credit for that. I could rattle off those that didn't make it, and believe me, I know quite a list of those. Mental illnesses misdiagnosed as demons and leading to suicide, kids who rebelled from the obvious wrong, but not knowing when to quit and ending up in jail, to homes wrecked and gone violent, where husband beats wife in Jesus' name. People dying because they feared doctors because the husband felt God's leading that they would be healed at home.

This is the biggest load of crap I have read in a long time, and I really am very offended by it. Where in my post did I say anything disrespectful or disdainful about my parents?! I think they are some of the greatest people I know, and I believe them to be awesome, and loving parents. WHen I grow up, it is my genuine desire to be just like my father. I am very seriously offended by what you just said. And your ridiculous analogies are totally unnecessary. "I don't care that you eat one meal a day, in some countries they don't get any!" I didn't complain about my parents, firstly, and secondly, that is a stupid argument.

Your post reeks of this: I am wiser than all home-school parents ever to walk the face of the planet because I got out of a nice situation fine. Well... I got out of a situation where I was informed I would marry my parent's choice, my parents would pick my profession, and I would do it or I was out of God's will. The very fact that you could walk away, get married at 19, and could go to school without physical obstacle, shows that you were not in this sort of mentality. My parents kicked me out for my choice to pursue school. They would not talk to me for over a year out of hostility because I was dead to them.

This paragraph is hilarious to me, because of how irrelevant it is. I said NOTHING to that affect. AT all. I cannot wait to homeschool my children and learn from my parents mistakes. I will make all new ones that they never made, however.

Beyond that, I haven't accepted a single dime of support from my parents since I moved out of their house. I could move out at 18 because I had a job. Even if my parents were as insane as yours I could have followed the exact same path that I have followed over the past two years. Again, your anecdotal stories and analogies are totally irrelevant to what you have said.

I am no wiser than anyone else. That I escaped is a combination of dumb luck and running through the dark, all alone, looking for something real. I have a great assortment of random tales. Most of them are from this period of my life, learning what it was to rebel from something immoral, to try to become moral, and failing. Not having a good set of normal skills. However, I do happen to have an enormous skillset of non-standard skills that to be honest, I am grateful for.

What on earth does this have to do with what I said? I am honestly really confused.

Andrew, what that article describes is not how you describe your family. And I have to ask you this, is your average, public schooled kid any better prepared to face life after high school? In my experience, I would say the average is an even lower baseline in the likelihood of surviving without an artificial world. Who works in fast food and who got the IT jobs?

This article definitely describes the beliefs my parents maintained for years. But that is neither here nor there. I honestly have no idea why you freaked out on my post here, when I said nothing negative about my parents.

Furthermore, I worked fastfood AND I got the IT job, so I don't know what you are talking about again. I don't have ANYTHING against homeshooling, and I definitely never proposed public or even private school as a solution. I didn't offer a specific problem, or a specific solution.

Most every family is broken, because people are broken. Its not the systems. Its not the home schooling that makes all families broken, it is that they are composed of broken, screwed up people. I am screwed up, you are screwed up, and your family will eventually have its dysfunctions. Mine already has a few I could point to. But the fact is this. That is a part of just being a human being.

Duh.

Edit -

I was going to respond to the other post as well, but I am even more offended by it than I am by this one, and I will definitely be responding in anger.

Bill, just because you had a terrible childhood and are bitter at your parents doesn't mean that everyone is. I can look my parent's mistakes in the face and accept them with utter love and grace, because I don't have a problem with their mistakes. They are great people, and they also adhered to the patriarchal movement. Again, I grew up listening to lindvall, and they swore by him. So don't tell me that they weren't part of this movement, because they were.

Ugh.

[leiarose]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

If I over-react to this somewhat, realize where I was. I could try to detail some things if you have questions,but I would only via PM, (literally, it would be a dead giveaway of my identity) but literally, it makes me physically ill to lump good people in with this group.

I think it's a mistake to make this so intensely personal. Having been on CGR for any period of time I'm well-acquainted with stories of your past and don't wish to PM for further details. I could tell horrible stories from my childhood as well - I'm sure many of us could but what is the benefit in that?

I ask you this: How many of them are still at home? I could name you literally over a dozen instances where the kids never will get out. Parents will die, and then they will be alone. Every parent has failings and every homeschool kid or public schooled kid comes out with problems. Its part of being human.

Very true - I do know many still at home that really should have moved on by now.

I see in Andrew's post something I have seen often in Home-schoolers, and it is a reactionary mindset, that in time, often reveals itself to be bitterness, and immaturity because your parents aren't and weren't perfect. Appreciate them for the good they did. I wish I could, but I have enough trouble forgiving them every day for the torments they inflicted on me. And many, were taught directly by the patriarchal movement. To separate it from abuse is like separating liquid water from the property of wetness.

I think Andrew replied to this to clarify - if further clarity is even possible. This was not the case, at any rate.

[H.M. Murdock]

Originally Posted by leiarose

Very true - I do know many still at home that really should have moved on by now.

Hey.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Andrew

And I believe your anecdotal evidence to be utterly clueless. We can do this all day. In my experience, and the experience of my wife, both of us who grew up in homeschool circles, this has been the case. This includes hundreds of homeschool families, not my group down the street. This is pervasive in my experience, not the exception.

And I have seen hundreds as well, and I could name maybe 15 which actually held to any sort of patriarchal model. There are a lot of homeschoolers that hold to fragmentary views of little pieces of the movement, but they are not the ones who attempt to lock their kids into apprenticeships only, and such absolute control.

My wife grew up in homeschool circles and literally had never heard of this. I dare say a lot of homeschooling couples I know have never heard of this, and I do know quite a few.

Call me clueless, but unless you are seeking to vilify parents, I do not see the point in accusing them of being part of this.

I grew up listening to Lindvall. My parents adhered to his beliefs for a couple of years. I know EXACTLY what this movement is, and I know what it is not.

And there I believe you are wrong. Did you for example hear his lectures he forbade his inner circle from recording? I did, because my family was among the members of his house church for a while. Lets see, I knew his family personally for well over a decade. I guess you could say, I heard a lot. Especially since I went to his house church by force for over 5 years, every week hearing him pontificate.

His teachings are like an onion. He teaches the socially acceptable first, and it gets a little weirder, and a little weirder, and the closer it gets, the more dangerous it gets. And at the end, strange things indeed are taught, and nobody questioned them. The one guy who held him in check and opposed this movement was deposed. That is a long sad story.

This is the biggest load of crap I have read in a long time, and I really am very offended by it. Where in my post did I say anything disrespectful or disdainful about my parents?! I think they are some of the greatest people I know, and I believe them to be awesome, and loving parents. WHen I grow up, it is my genuine desire to be just like my father. I am very seriously offended by what you just said. And your ridiculous analogies are totally unnecessary. "I don't care that you eat one meal a day, in some countries they don't get any!" I didn't complain about my parents, firstly, and secondly, that is a stupid argument.

Those weren't analogies. Those were the people you were lumping yourselves into. Those were some of the foremost families in the movement there. So unless you are willing to lump your parents in there, with them, I would not try to portray them as part of the same group. Did your parents fight your sister learning and getting an education? While they might not have planned the best for the future, some of this group are literally opposed to women reading. (and children under the age of 12, because it limits the parents impact in their life)

Since you do not seem to see what you wrote yourself...

Originally Posted by andrew

It's massive all over this country, more so than I think most people realize. Almost all of the homeschoolers I know are trapped inside of a broken familial system of some sort. The idea that women should be homemakers and NOTHING else (no education, or a useless one.) and that boys should be exactly what the parents want them to become before they get married. (i.e. Don't ever leave home.)

I was fortunate to escape this at the tail end of my childhood, but it was definitely hugely prevalent in the first 14 or 15 years of my life.

here you say your parents were basically dysfunctional and that you were trapped inside a broken family structure for 14-15 years. Pardon my saying so, but that is looking at ones parents with disdain, viewing their raising of you as a child as a broken structure. This is complaining about your parents, period. Take a look at what YOU WROTE again. Those are some heavy accusations you make using such words as broken and trapped.

Thank God for good parents, who didn't trap you. My point is that. Thank God, and be glad you didn't get into this mess. By all rights, it sounds like your parents turned away before you got burned and no damage was done. Not all of us were that lucky.

This paragraph is hilarious to me, because of how irrelevant it is. I said NOTHING to that affect. AT all. I cannot wait to homeschool my children and learn from my parents mistakes. I will make all new ones that they never made, however.

You call your family a broken structure and then say it was great. You speak of escape, but then you want to be just like them. Which is it? A trap, or a loving family? It is one or the other. If it was a loving family, for the love of them, do not associate this movement with them. Its unfair to them. I have met couples all over the country who bought this hook line and sinker. I spent a month at the ATI Oklahoma City training center, and even there, there was a movement against this. I am sorry, but when there is a movement there, that something has gone too far right, you know there are issues.

Beyond that, I haven't accepted a single dime of support from my parents since I moved out of their house. I could move out at 18 because I had a job. Even if my parents were as insane as yours I could have followed the exact same path that I have followed over the past two years. Again, your anecdotal stories and analogies are totally irrelevant to what you have said.

No, they are relevant, even if you can't see it. The thing is, what you are describing, is loving parents doing a good job for their kids and identifying it with something thats much more insidious. Let me put it to you this way. If your parents were like mine, you could not have pursued the same choices. If you think that, than I guarantee you have not looked down the messed up rabbit hole and seen the other side. There are some genuinely dark spots of homeschooling, and what I saw amongst the Patriarchal movement was stuff that should make you cringe. It is stuff that led to a lot of damage. I would say that what I saw was a cult, and it was only moderately less dangerous than the Jim Jones of the world. Thats why I have a hard time trying to say that that is anything like you describe.

We are coming at this from two perspectives. I come actually from the ideological center. It sounds like your parents had some mild influence that they detected as error. And that will always occur. Because the ideological center was so bad, I take offense that you would even associate good people with it.

And you seem to view things with a cavalier attitude that you could have taken the same course. I literally had a full blown network of some very conservative families on the far right trying to help free me. You could say, in a lot of ways, I owe them my life.

And I have given my parents money since the age of 12 for food and clothes. But this has nothing to do with support.

What on earth does this have to do with what I said? I am honestly really confused.

Without giving names and a lot of stories, I will just say that once you actually get into the heart of the movement, kids were left with a binary choice of absolute obedience no matter what, or rebellion. I dare say most of the kids at the very core of the movement are either in jail or still within the movement into their 30's now. (I could name a ton of the ones in jail off the top of my head, for everything from rape to murder to spousal abuse). When you get into a form of homeschooling where people are treated as property they either become docile slaves or learn to rebel, and when stealing a car is on the same level as cooking on the Sabbath, a lot of kids on their way out of this movement go crazy. I do not mean they go insane, but you grow used to rebellion. I know I did. You violate authority to live long enough and it becomes second nature, at that point is when a lot of kids went off the deep end. They could not adjust to freedom well without outside help. The very concept of freedom was so alien that they didn't know what to do with it when they gained it.

Kids at that point in college need serious mentoring to know what is socially acceptable, and what is morally acceptable. They are so used to orders that they flip out with freedom or just get calloused to listening to anybody. They are not your typical homeschooler at all. There is a huge set of challenges that have to be dealt with from kids of this movement. And there are some in little enclaves. Several groups of them actually did found communes. I know where a few are.

This article definitely describes the beliefs my parents maintained for years. But that is neither here nor there. I honestly have no idea why you freaked out on my post here, when I said nothing negative about my parents.

Actually, you did. You implied they were duped, and at around 14 or so they wised up, and you moved out because you didn't like living with them. I am sorry, but that is exactly the negative connotation you painted your parents with, and my point is this. If they were such good people, and you escaped... doesn't that mean that they didn't buy into this in a very real sense? Maybe it is much more systemic than you think, and you mercifully only met the edges of it rather than being in Springville, CA. My parents went whole hog in, and bought the teachings in the extreme forms. Forms you seem either unwilling to admit exist, or that you are ignorant of. Because I have seen the whole thing adopted, in numerous places and ways, no, I do not think it is very common at all, nor do I think attributing this to good people shows any understanding of what actually was going on.

And there were definitely two sides to this coin. One was the public side, which I am guessing is what you saw, and the other was the private side, which is how these families that lived this way actually acted, and how they lived out the teachings. That is where it truly got scary. And I do mean scary. I was unfortunately there. I lived through that, and I hate to say it, but my parents followed the detailed instructions to the letter.

Furthermore, I worked fastfood AND I got the IT job, so I don't know what you are talking about again. I don't have ANYTHING against homeshooling, and I definitely never proposed public or even private school as a solution. I didn't offer a specific problem, or a specific solution.

Your posts reveal a HARSH bias against homeschooling. But my point about jobs is this. Every kid I know of that got out of that movement had some valuable job skills on the way out. Whether it was learned in the method or learned bypassing it, a heck of a lot of those I know who made it out ended up in the IT industry or other skilled, white collar labor. Not many of us did the fast food thing. However... most of the college students I know in graduate work don't really have a single marketable job skill, so in some odd sense, I think some of us were forged through this into being able to better cope with what life threw at us.

Duh.

Edit -

I was going to respond to the other post as well, but I am even more offended by it than I am by this one, and I will definitely be responding in anger.

Bill, just because you had a terrible childhood and are bitter at your parents doesn't mean that everyone is. I can look my parent's mistakes in the face and accept them with utter love and grace, because I don't have a problem with their mistakes. They are great people, and they also adhered to the patriarchal movement. Again, I grew up listening to lindvall, and they swore by him. So don't tell me that they weren't part of this movement, because they were.

Ugh.

I grew up going to his house multiple times a week. I know his donkey's name and his love of flip flops quite well. I have had dinner at their house and I know his mother even. Now, do you know his philosophy on sex in marriage? (That the Bible teaches women are to have sex with their husbands at least once a day unless they are fasting, and that the husband has supreme authority...?) DO you know the views on discipline? I seriously doubt that one because he wouldn't let that one be recorded for fear of prosecution. That one would have been enough to curl your hair. It literally gave locations of where bruising would not be spotted such as on the back, because the wounds from discipline needed to be harsh enough to bruise, because "the blueness of a wound cleanses away evil." Believe me, I am not going to forget lectures like that. My mother took them to heart.

And oddly enough, I am not bitter at my parents. My mom is mentally ill, and my dad has since largely attempted to mend fences. However, that does not mean I didn't watch the origins of this movie tear dozens of families apart including my own.

Because I was caught in the crossfire of it, I just would not try to put tons of people in with what was really a very bad idea.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by leiarose

I think it's a mistake to make this so intensely personal. Having been on CGR for any period of time I'm well-acquainted with stories of your past and don't wish to PM for further details. I could tell horrible stories from my childhood as well - I'm sure many of us could but what is the benefit in that?

The day my arm got snapped using their techniques, you could say, they made it personal. It is intensely personal to me, mainly because I got chewed up, spit out, and nearly walked away from Christianity over it.

The benefit is in looking deep inside the movement, and finding those actually affected, and then helping them cope with the real world and experience healing enough to function. I went into some of the further details. Basically, this movement taught how-tos in child abuse that were used on me, and I mean taught as in gave explicit instructions, down to which sized dowels would leave marks that looked like normal kid bruising and where to hit. Now they took the fight to my door years ago, I am just pointing out that there are good people out there. Not everyone has families that are this kind of fiend. I realize that, and I wish I had one. I have spent years trying to get back on track. Parts of my life were destroyed by this, and I have watched it claim the lives of many I knew.

The other point in mentioning this is to realize just how lucky your husband was, and you can appreciate your in laws all the more. You don't know the sweet till you know the bitter. This leaves people either focusing on shortcomings or achievements. My point is that as long as fingers are being pointed over past, small mistakes, the sweet is missed. However, at the very depth of this movement it is bitter, and I dare say, there is evil. So enjoy. Look your in laws square in the face and appreciate them. Learn from their mistakes, but please do not pair them with my family. My family lived this way hardcore, and there is not much I can emulate. I envy you and Andrew in that sense. I guarantee you, I have a poorer sense of how a godly man leads a home from my father, than Andrew does.

Thats why I find it absolutely repugnant to lump Andrew's parents, who I am absolutely taking at his word are good people, in with mine. I highly doubt the ideologies were even similar. Because the ideologies I was raised under were dangerous, and evil.

I think Andrew replied to this to clarify - if further clarity is even possible. This was not the case, at any rate.

My point is, when people get serious about this, a lot of dangerous crap does occur. A lot of people have been injured by this. A lot, but when you throw the net so wide as to include too many, those who did go through the hardcore effects will get lost. It becomes a case of everybody being homeschooled is socially inept. The old (false) stereotype.

We are not your average homeschooler. I could build you a fairly accurate profile of what a lot of these kids look like and they are freakishly easy to spot if you know the movement. But I dare say one out of every 50 homeschoolers I have met has not even been involved in this. But they are out there, with a separate and unique set of needs and issues. I am a survivor of this movement, and my littlest brother is basically a casualty of this war. We all have issues. And its messy to deal with. Real messy.

I think any time this is really, truly put into place, the husband/father is set up as a person with way too much intrinsic authority and nearly always, that authority is abused. I have always seen it paired with physical abuse, from malnutrition from withholding food, to scarred kids who just get the crap beat out of them routinely. This was the banner I was attacked under, left without food under, choked till I passed out under, so yeah, it is personal to me. It has to be. God knows I wish it wasn't. But I really have come to terms with what it means and have tried to pull some use out of the rubble.

However, I don't want to see ignorance, broad brush good families with the taint of my family and those like me. And that's what I see here.

If you have good parents, like Andrew seems to for sure. (your past has not been discussed and I don't know what you came out of.) My parents are the looneys here. Don't put the good people in the same basket as the bad.

I plan on homeschooling my kids eventually and radically different than I was raised. I would not want the taint of what was done in that early movement to haunt me. And it will, because people will hear of the ones like me from the ones of us who ended up made into horrible things. ANd they will. A lot of the worst of my kind of ilk do blame their crimes on it, and with a nugget of truth behind the reason. However, most homeschoolers are not like that and most parents will not be like that

Praise God it is rare. I contend that it is, from walking out of it, partially intact.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by H.M. Murdock

Bill, to say that the patriarchal movement is automatically physically abusive is an unwarranted statement. Leaders may advocate it, but that does not identify the majority. While I've met plenty of people who've gone through situations similar to yours, the family structure and subsequent domination is what defines the patriarchal movement, not the violence. Just to give this post some scope, I say this as someone who has interacted with thousands of homeschoolers, been around and observed hundreds of families, and was completely immersed in the neo-conservative homeschool culture most of his life. *wink*
Nobody's questioning your experiences, Bill, but many of Andrew and Laura's observations are valid.

The domination leading to forms of abuse is pretty universal though. When you combine the power structure with the teaching, it becomes painfully common. And it is secretive. I came out of the epicenter and what I said fits what I have seen. I highly suspect that my cynicism and the corruption absolute, inordinate power brings.

And one could argue that the absolute domination is a form of abuse intrinsically. That's not much of a stretch at all. It's slavery.

[Andrew]

Actually, you did. You implied they were duped, and at around 14 or so they wised up, and you moved out because you didn't like living with them. I am sorry, but that is exactly the negative connotation you painted your parents with, and my point is this. If they were such good people, and you escaped... doesn't that mean that they didn't buy into this in a very real sense? Maybe it is much more systemic than you think, and you mercifully only met the edges of it rather than being in Springville, CA. My parents went whole hog in, and bought the teachings in the extreme forms. Forms you seem either unwilling to admit exist, or that you are ignorant of. Because I have seen the whole thing adopted, in numerous places and ways, no, I do not think it is very common at all, nor do I think attributing this to good people shows any understanding of what actually was going on.

When did I say they were the ultimate followers of such a movement? You are painting a polarized picture of this world that is simply not accurate. Just because you know people who beat the hell out of their kids because of these beliefs definitely does not mean that everyone who adheres to these beliefs beats their kids. There are varying degrees of following. I agree that these forms exist, but I don't agree that it is either that people follow these insane beliefs or follow something completely and totally opposite.. Polarizing people doesn't make any sense.

Furthermore, I didn't "escape" my parents house. you completely misread what I posted. I said that I "escaped" that mentality when I was 14, and by the time I was 18 I was a functional adult who was ready to move out of my parents house. I loved living with them, but we were butting heads over STUPID things because I was a fully developed adult. (I am talking about really dumb stuff. Like the way I folded my laundry, or parked my car. Not stuff that either of us cared about.) It's frustrating to live under the authority of someone who you are on par with in functionality, which is the exact words my dad used a year after the fact.

I didn't move out of my parents house because I didn't like them, or like living there, or because I was mad at them. I moved out of their house because they raised me, from 14-18, to be a healthy adult to go out in the world and get things done.


In summary, yes, people suck. There are always extremists. Even though the ACTUAL teachings of Islam are to beat your wife and murder infidels, the majority of western muslims don't think either of those things are right. But they definitely adhere to a lot of the islamic model. Why is it so hard for you to accept that this is hugely true of the patriarchal movement as well? Just because someone doesn't abuse their children in the same ways as these situations you erroneously mentioned does NOT mean they are not adhering to the patriarchal model.

I am not responding to the rest of your post because we are talking about two completely different things, I believe.

[leiarose]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

The other point in mentioning this is to realize just how lucky your husband was, and you can appreciate your in laws all the more. You don't know the sweet till you know the bitter. This leaves people either focusing on shortcomings or achievements. My point is that as long as fingers are being pointed over past, small mistakes, the sweet is missed. However, at the very depth of this movement it is bitter, and I dare say, there is evil. So enjoy. Look your in laws square in the face and appreciate them. Learn from their mistakes, but please do not pair them with my family. My family lived this way hardcore, and there is not much I can emulate. I envy you and Andrew in that sense. I guarantee you, I have a poorer sense of how a godly man leads a home from my father, than Andrew does.

I don't think Andrew was "lucky" at all. I think he was raised in a moderately typical homeschooling family, accepted a personal relationship with Christ, grew up and is now married to me. We are not pointing fingers or casting horrid blame - we're discussing real mistaken theories in raising godly children and moving on. Like Andrew said, we won't make the same mistakes our parents made because of our observations but we will certainly make new ones. I'm surprised that you blatantly assume I don't appreciate my in laws. I think you are out of line stating that but I'm not going to follow it up with tear-jerker stories about what his dad means to me, etc. Just for the record, completely out of line.

If you have good parents, like Andrew seems to for sure. (your past has not been discussed and I don't know what you came out of.) My parents are the looneys here. Don't put the good people in the same basket as the bad.

I don't regularly discuss my past because it is not relevant to every single thing I stand for or want to talk about. There is a point where you just have to get over it.

I did want to amend my previous post about young adults still being at home that should have moved on - I didn't mean to offend anyone. Individual situations and circumstances require different methods of growing up and moving out. I was actually thinking of girls I know that really have a hard time growing up because of their gender and place in the family. Every situation is different.

[guitar_girlzoe]

this is funny, because we get NGJ magazine, but my dad hates the guy, but I read his stuff, and I read this article in the magazine. It is good, and true, considering that I am in a situation like that right now. there are two things you can do when it is the extreme case, just forget about ever having your own life, or rebel. or at least they are going to think you are a rebel .

[shamgar001]

Being homeschooled, I can say that in my group families like those mentioned in the article are a minority. I'm sure it differs place to place.

[chrs]

The first thing I notice about this article is that the primary example is at odds with the symptoms listed later in the article. The couple let their eight children go, even if they wanted them to be married first, but it complains more about children kept at home than children being forced to marry or go to Bible college.

I see that the argument over definitions has been over for some weeks. I won't go into it, then, but I'd like to express admiration for the respectful tone that most of the participants kept up for such a long debate.

[Nate]

What a ****** misnomer and a terribly conceived article.

Of all the things this world needs fewer of... fathers? ***?

Let's not throw the patriarchal baby out with the tyrannical bath.

[Dog Box]

Originally Posted by Nate

What a ****** misnomer and a terribly conceived article.

Of all the things this world needs fewer of... fathers? ***?

Let's not throw the patriarchal baby out with the tyrannical bath.

Dude, you read the article upside down...
Very good article. What is sad is, I know of people who is like that. If their daughters doesn't marry, daddy stays in charge, no matter how old you are. I just think some people get it wrong...
Our world need more dads, but being a 'dad' doesn't start at the age of 18 (some of them only wake up when they notice their children aint little angels anymore)... you need be prepare your children for the time they go out of home,and then let go. Its the same with the relationship we have with God, there is a time when God feeds you with spiritual food, and then there is a time when he send you into battle.... And the parents that think they need to hold their 'kids' back until they find the will of God, well you can't sit on your ass and hope to find a work, you are actually gonna have to get up and go and find it, same with God, if you want to see Gods will in your life, you going to have to start to do something and trust God.