[DaGeek]

Originally Posted by niangelo

Interesting.

Honestly, even among most conservative, fundamental homeschoolers I know, I've never seen anything like that described in that article. I think it's incredibly rare - I don't know a single family that doesn't want their kids striking out, getting married and making a life for themselves as soon as possible.

In my area (I live in Virginia), it's somewhat rampant among homeschooling families that I know (can't say if it's the same with public-schooling ones, though, as I don't know a lot of them, being homeschooled myself). A lot of it is tied into a somewhat strict form of religion (girls have to wear jumpers, guys wear slacks, etc.) for some families, but, for others, it's just the way they grow up. Girls learn how to be homemakers because they're at home all the time. Generally, the guys and some of the girls will get sent off to college, but a lot of it starts at community colleges instead of full-blown four-year universities.

My suspicion is that part of it is due to the parents getting somewhat heavily attached to their children because they're home all the time, and they can't really bear to see them leave and be gone forever because they're not used to their kids being anywhere but home, if that makes sense.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

I grew up in an all male children version of that home. I am pretty decently adjusted in spite of it.

Those homes it occurs in (and being in one family that practices that crap, you do see others, as it is a very isolationist sort of group that is only comfortable with its own adherents) I think the article was good.

Sabrina. I am sure 5000 years of a culture have got it to where there are some seriously cool connections. However, you are the real deal, and this is more about independent Americans attempting to sieze power based on a misunderstanding and adoptions of pieces of cultures that suit a very strange worldview.

I still have scars from beatings that I have no clue what they were ever for, just my parents felt like demonstrating power and "promoting obedience." Thats the world I hail from and a world I fear. Unless you have been there or real close to the actual core of the movement... you really don't quite get it or how harsh and dangerous it can be.

Jefferey, this is not your average homeschooler being discussed. This is a very small and radical subset. I could name a few leaders of this sort of mindset, but most homeschoolers regard them as the lunatic fringe and my childhood self was known to the leaders of this movement. My childhood self bears little resemblance to me now, I think all they could recognize is the name.

It set me on a dangerous course to get out and make do in the world without a clue where to start. I did strike out, but I know some people who didn't. I have tried to help a few of these people get deprogrammed and functioning in the real world.

In theory they do want their kids getting married (to another family so inclined, without communication between the marrying parties) getting a job, (by apprenticeship with another one of these families) and then moving on. But that day rarely comes. What happens is all out rebellion and fragmentation, or the kids are still at home till they are 35 or till parents die and the kids are lost.

[Rainer.]

Yes, my experience is much more like Sabrina's excellent example of the patriarchal society practiced by the Eastern world. I thought the article was a bit reactionary with its final conclusions.

In my family and culture, children are expected to stay in the household until marriage. A child who leaves before marriage is often regarded as a rogue or dishonoring of their own parents (it makes it look as if the parents aren't capable of caring for their own child). Pushing the children out of the home by the age of 18 is irresponsible of the parent, and dishonoring of the family for the child. So there is a strong cultural tie in for parents to be strong and care for their children until they are out of the home. In doing so in the American lifestyle, that does mean that children will be at home often through their mid to late twenties.

But, as in Sabrina's example, the much more important task for the parents is to prepare the child by every means to be able to operate successfully outside of the home. My father was always very clear on his expectations that by the time we children left his house, we would have education to the best of our abilities, and be fully capable of living independently by the time of marriage.

Thus there is the healthy balance in a patriarchal culture of the parents dually being fully responsible for the children, while expecting the children to be fully responsible. I, for one, am expected to be able to take care of myself without my parents, but they are fully responsible for my financial and material well being.

Asian kids these days can definitely see their parents as overbearing and controlling due to there needing to be a degree of family loyalty as to not dishonor the parents, but definitely for reasons different than what was in that article.

[bravesfan007]

Originally Posted by MtlMom

Staying with the family business, whether it's farming, running a hardware store, or missionary work, is nothing new. People are often more comfortable doing what they know. People who want to break away from family traditions can usually do this.

Good point. I know a lot of people who are doing the same thing that there family has done for a long time. There are a few who have decided to take a different path, but then you ask them what they want to do in the next thirty years and their answer is to retire and return to the family farm. I know I may live in an odd section of the world, but this does happen.

Another family has recently opened their own business where the father is the cook. He has been a cook most of his life (as a side note, a very good one at that) and one of his sons wants to go to culinary school and become a chef. And yes, they home school their children.

Originally Posted by The Sleepy Armadillo

My suspicion is that part of it is due to the parents getting somewhat heavily attached to their children because they're home all the time, and they can't really bear to see them leave and be gone forever because they're not used to their kids being anywhere but home, if that makes sense.

I could see this as a problem. Although, like I stated earlier, this is a problem in my family and I wasn't even home-schooled. Maybe my family is just strange, but it's happening in my own. I've not been beaten or held under a strict eye like a lot of people, but my mother likes to try and plan out my life for me.

[H.M. Murdock]

Originally Posted by MtlMom

At the heart of it, I don't think this has anything to do with homeschooling or Christianity, and it certainly isn't anything new.

My husband's great-grandfather was a pharmacist. His sons became pharmacists and took over the family business. Their sons became pharmacists. My husband's parents, who were both pharmacists, did not push any of their four children to go into the family business (which my husband regrets occasionally, by the way).

Staying with the family business, whether it's farming, running a hardware store, or missionary work, is nothing new. People are often more comfortable doing what they know. People who want to break away from family traditions can usually do this.

That isn't necessarily a common thing, though. Yes, many missionary families in those sorts of situations do expect children to become missionaries simply because they cannot imagine their children being anything else. Sort of like how a police officer rarely expects his child to become a drug dealer.
In other instances, however, a profession is not handed down. It isn't about one's job, it's about one's attitude concerning everything including one's job, marriage, etc. At least that's how it is in my family. I am not expected or encouraged to go into medicine. Of course, I'm also not encouraged to go into anything else, or really do anything in terms of picking up a profession of any sort, but oh well.

[Jfool]

I think its hard enough to escape the "inherent" programming or tendency to emmulate one's parents... even if you don't want to (and your parents don't encourage it), it happens in the subconcious. But when outright pressure is applied by the parent(s), I can only imagine how difficult it would be to move on and form a template of your own.

As far as homeschooling I would only echo Mtlmom.

[indianguitarist]

gotta think about it from the other side for a second. Maybe its not that homeschoolers are "weird" or "sheltered". Maybe they're the ones that are living the christian life, and we're the ones that feel threatened. maybe the only reason they appear "weird" is because we're used to seeing the worldly side of things, and when someone comes across from the opposite side of the spectrum, it disturbs us more than the world. I was homeschooled till the fifth grade, and when my parents put me into a private school people were not comfortable with me. They thought I was weird. It's just a question of perspective. so next time you see a homeschooler trying to fit in, don't be too hard on them. They probably see the world much differently than you do.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by indianguitarist

gotta think about it from the other side for a second. Maybe its not that homeschoolers are "weird" or "sheltered". Maybe they're the ones that are living the christian life, and we're the ones that feel threatened. maybe the only reason they appear "weird" is because we're used to seeing the worldly side of things, and when someone comes across from the opposite side of the spectrum, it disturbs us more than the world. I was homeschooled till the fifth grade, and when my parents put me into a private school people were not comfortable with me. They thought I was weird. It's just a question of perspective. so next time you see a homeschooler trying to fit in, don't be too hard on them. They probably see the world much differently than you do.

Did you read the article? I have been on both sides of the fence here, and the group the article discussed is not biblical or right.

I was homeschooled through high school. I went through a good phase and where my parents got involved with this movement. I do know after a good decade in college the benefits and disadvantages of my upbringing.

The article was not about weird, or sheltered, but about a subfaction that is much more insidious.

[indianguitarist]

i see what you mean. u've got a point there. But, like you said, that's a smaller subfaction.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by indianguitarist

gotta think about it from the other side for a second. Maybe its not that homeschoolers are "weird" or "sheltered". Maybe they're the ones that are living the christian life, and we're the ones that feel threatened. maybe the only reason they appear "weird" is because we're used to seeing the worldly side of things, and when someone comes across from the opposite side of the spectrum, it disturbs us more than the world. I was homeschooled till the fifth grade, and when my parents put me into a private school people were not comfortable with me. They thought I was weird. It's just a question of perspective. so next time you see a homeschooler trying to fit in, don't be too hard on them. They probably see the world much differently than you do.

I agree that it helps to think about perspectives, but I think saying that homeschoolers are "the ones living the Christian life" is more than a bit presumptuous.

[H.M. Murdock]

Originally Posted by indianguitarist

i see what you mean. u've got a point there. But, like you said, that's a smaller subfaction.

It isn't all that small though. Its' easy to think "small" and say, oh, it's limited to a few people, like just the Dugger family in Arkansas, or the Philips family in Texas. But it's not. It's pretty prevalent in the South, actually, to at least find a version of the patriarchal movement being modeled within a homeschool family.

[Andrew]

It's massive all over this country, more so than I think most people realize. Almost all of the homeschoolers I know are trapped inside of a broken familial system of some sort. The idea that women should be homemakers and NOTHING else (no education, or a useless one.) and that boys should be exactly what the parents want them to become before they get married. (i.e. Don't ever leave home.)

I was fortunate to escape this at the tail end of my childhood, but it was definitely hugely prevalent in the first 14 or 15 years of my life. And my parents are absolutely awesome Christian people. But thankfully they realized what they were doing before it was too late, and I still maintain a really close relationship with them to this day. I did leave home at 18 and get married at 19, because I didn't want to be in their house anymore. Not out of rebellion, but because I was an adult and I needed to start making my own decisions.

I have a lot of thoughts, but I don't think they will come out. I can summarize with a comment my sister made to my mother a few years back. She asked when she was going to start highschool (at 15), and my mother told her that she was going to stay at home anyhow, so high school was not very important. I know you guys don't think that is common, but it really, REALLY is. My sister did finish high school, and is working on her second Bachelor's degree right now and is married and a functional person, but that was because she self-started and completed high school completely on her own. (she is going to be a CPA at the end of next summer.) My parents are not bad parents, they are just typical home schoolers.

I go to a college that has at least 150 home schoolers in attendance. And this is really the norm of experience here, not the exception.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Andrew

It's massive all over this country, more so than I think most people realize. Almost all of the homeschoolers I know are trapped inside of a broken familial system of some sort. The idea that women should be homemakers and NOTHING else (no education, or a useless one.) and that boys should be exactly what the parents want them to become before they get married. (i.e. Don't ever leave home.)

I was fortunate to escape this at the tail end of my childhood, but it was definitely hugely prevalent in the first 14 or 15 years of my life. And my parents are absolutely awesome Christian people. But thankfully they realized what they were doing before it was too late, and I still maintain a really close relationship with them to this day. I did leave home at 18 and get married at 19, because I didn't want to be in their house anymore. Not out of rebellion, but because I was an adult and I needed to start making my own decisions.

I have a lot of thoughts, but I don't think they will come out. I can summarize with a comment my sister made to my mother a few years back. She asked when she was going to start highschool (at 15), and my mother told her that she was going to stay at home anyhow, so high school was not very important. I know you guys don't think that is common, but it really, REALLY is. My sister did finish high school, and is working on her second Bachelor's degree right now and is married and a functional person, but that was because she self-started and completed high school completely on her own. (she is going to be a CPA at the end of next summer.) My parents are not bad parents, they are just typical home schoolers.

I go to a college that has at least 150 home schoolers in attendance. And this is really the norm of experience here, not the exception.

You paint with far too broad a brush. I have seen a bunch of different varieties, and I dare say, most homeschool kids I have met turn out fine. My wife was homeschooled and there was not a shred of this in her upbringing. If you think this is your typical home-schooler, than I am sorry, but you are utterly clueless. Maybe in the circles you ran in, or in a particular area, but growing up I knew dozens of homeschool families over the years and have seen everything from this to my wife's family, who literally homeschooled because of safety issues in the public schools. I lived with them for a while. I know their dysfunctions, and they erred on the side of laxness.

I went to Moody, which has a fair share of homeschoolers, no doubt. The ones who had been raised in this sort of environment were rare. Very rare. I grew up in ATI, the Bill Gothard strain of homeschooling, and my family hung out with the Lindvalls so believe me when I say, I know this movement. Lindvall is the first one I heard actually preach this movement and as best as I can tell, was for a while at least its leader. However, you are looking for oppression and malice, and honestly viewing your parents through eyes of disdain. Did they do a good job? It sounds it, from what you say. Give them credit for that. I could rattle off those that didn't make it, and believe me, I know quite a list of those. Mental illnesses misdiagnosed as demons and leading to suicide, kids who rebelled from the obvious wrong, but not knowing when to quit and ending up in jail, to homes wrecked and gone violent, where husband beats wife in Jesus' name. People dying because they feared doctors because the husband felt God's leading that they would be healed at home.

Your post reeks of this: I am wiser than all home-school parents ever to walk the face of the planet because I got out of a nice situation fine. Well... I got out of a situation where I was informed I would marry my parent's choice, my parents would pick my profession, and I would do it or I was out of God's will. The very fact that you could walk away, get married at 19, and could go to school without physical obstacle, shows that you were not in this sort of mentality. My parents kicked me out for my choice to pursue school. They would not talk to me for over a year out of hostility because I was dead to them.

I moved out at 17. Started making my own decisions and plowed a long road to get out of that sort of lifestyle. It is relatively rare. Moderately sheltered kids usually do fine, but the kids that come out of this movement need a strong hand to help them adjust to normal life. I didn't have that and it took me longer than it should have. However, those kids that do make it out need help knowing where societal limits are. They seemingly usually start with being really shy, but randomly let all hell break loose because they are used to conformity, so when they do get out, going to college and smoking crack were on the same tier of sin in their parents home, so they often need a bit of a guardian angel to help them adjust. I dare say I saw only 2 of these males at moody and 1 female. They kind of tend to come across like the weird kid who eats paste, and yet remarkably confident all at the same time.

I am no wiser than anyone else. That I escaped is a combination of dumb luck and running through the dark, all alone, looking for something real. I have a great assortment of random tales. Most of them are from this period of my life, learning what it was to rebel from something immoral, to try to become moral, and failing. Not having a good set of normal skills. However, I do happen to have an enormous skillset of non-standard skills that to be honest, I am grateful for.

Andrew, what that article describes is not how you describe your family. And I have to ask you this, is your average, public schooled kid any better prepared to face life after high school? In my experience, I would say the average is an even lower baseline in the likelihood of surviving without an artificial world. Who works in fast food and who got the IT jobs?

My brothers and I range from a drug using musician to a respected scientist, to a pilot, to me.

Most every family is broken, because people are broken. Its not the systems. Its not the home schooling that makes all families broken, it is that they are composed of broken, screwed up people. I am screwed up, you are screwed up, and your family will eventually have its dysfunctions. Mine already has a few I could point to. But the fact is this. That is a part of just being a human being.

[leiarose]

Originally Posted by Bill

However, you are looking for oppression and malice, and honestly viewing your parents through eyes of disdain. Did they do a good job? It sounds it, from what you say. Give them credit for that.

He did give them credit for it in that post and in anything else he ever says about his parents. You made a very far leap to use such strong and rude language in reply. Just because he doesn't have your history of "abuse" doesn't mean he has no logical argument in this discussion.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

You paint with far too broad a brush. I have seen a bunch of different varieties, and I dare say, most homeschool kids I have met turn out fine. My wife was homeschooled and there was not a shred of this in her upbringing. If you think this is your typical home-schooler, than I am sorry, but you are utterly clueless. Maybe in the circles you ran in, or in a particular area, but growing up I knew dozens of homeschool families over the years and have seen everything from this to my wife's family, who literally homeschooled because of safety issues in the public schools. I lived with them for a while. I know their dysfunctions, and they erred on the side of laxness.

I just wanted to add my voice/opinion/experience that the majority of homeschoolers I grew up with and know now are wonderful examples of this article and I believe it's more common than we think. It's certainly not a prescription of that individual's failure by any means - different children respond to different methods and change is always possible, even at adulthood.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by leiarose

He did give them credit for it in that post and in anything else he ever says about his parents. You made a very far leap to use such strong and rude language in reply. Just because he doesn't have your history of "abuse" doesn't mean he has no logical argument in this discussion.

Actually it was no stretch. Lumping his parents in such a group... a group, I know the founder of, a group that literally destroyed dozens of lives is slander of the worst kind. There will always be a desire for families to continue in lines and in traditions and in some senses, thats a good thing. Parents want to protect their kids. However, I was forced to attend the meetings of patriarchal groups for years. I dare say, lumping ones parents together with that is treating them no better than calling them any foul fiend earth has ever seen.

People have shortfallings. That is to be human. However, if you have faced off with this group in its extreme sects, as I had to, you see that the rabbit hole goes very deep, and that he escaped unscathed and the things he gave his parents credit for, shows they are not part of that group in reality.

If there is anything I wish I could have, it is respect for my parents. I can't have that, but from what Andrew has said, he can.

I could quote some words I can't forget about this movement when it started, but I dare say this, I do not think it is possible to separate this movement from physical abuse. At its inception, literally, parents were taught to beat their children with one inch dowels. Instructions were given on how to lay them across the back with minimal bruising, so CPS couldn't see. And yes, I had to sit through that and was warned of my fate to keep well behaved. There is a little bleedthrough of some of the ideals into the mainstream, but don't dare call your parents a part of this unless you know what they taught. Yeah, I have had to help some kids through this, and we are rare, and I wish we were extinct in a sense.

So unless his parents were a part of the movement, I think his attitude toward "great Christian parents" needs to change. Its callous, cold, and just plain wrong to lump good people in with that movement.

Obviously, some of the milder strain did become more mainstream, but obviously, his parents let him make decisions according to him, which in a very real way distances him from them. Thats something at various points in my life I would have done anything for. Appreciate that.

If I over-react to this somewhat, realize where I was. I could try to detail some things if you have questions,but I would only via PM, (literally, it would be a dead giveaway of my identity) but literally, it makes me physically ill to lump good people in with this group.

I just wanted to add my voice/opinion/experience that the majority of homeschoolers I grew up with and know now are wonderful examples of this article and I believe it's more common than we think. It's certainly not a prescription of that individual's failure by any means - different children respond to different methods and change is always possible, even at adulthood.

I ask you this: How many of them are still at home? I could name you literally over a dozen instances where the kids never will get out. Parents will die, and then they will be alone. Every parent has failings and every homeschool kid or public schooled kid comes out with problems. Its part of being human.

However, I had the unfortunate distinction of seeing this sects origin. Are most home schoolers a little naive and too reliant on mommy and daddy? Yes. But the patriarchal movement literally has taught things that I feel uncomfortable mentioning. They make me squeamish. Violence, abuse, mistreatment of women. I am a pretty frank guy, and I am not sure I could talk about everything I heard back then.

I see in Andrew's post something I have seen often in Home-schoolers, and it is a reactionary mindset, that in time, often reveals itself to be bitterness, and immaturity because your parents aren't and weren't perfect. Appreciate them for the good they did. I wish I could, but I have enough trouble forgiving them every day for the torments they inflicted on me. And many, were taught directly by the patriarchal movement. To separate it from abuse is like separating liquid water from the property of wetness.