[Becky]

Originally Posted by Danny

It's your job to demonstrate the logic of your position, not someone else's to disprove it. As it is it's just a flat non-sequitur. You paid a sales tax for your computer. Does that mean the government owns your computer?

Actually, it's the job of the person who calls a belief "illogical" to prove that it is so. I don't have to prove anything. It's my belief. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. You can provide me with facts that make it seam like i'm wrong/right, but that doesn't prove my belief "illogical"

By deffinition, anything that is "illogical", can be proven to be so.

HOWEVER, someone who claims something is logical, cannot FULLY prove beyond any doubt that it is in fact, logical. It may be logical based on some branches of logical theory, but there may be other branches that the speaker is unaware of (called Non Classical logic) that show it to be illogical.

But again, however.. I am not claiming that it is LOGICAL, I am claiming that it is not inherently ILLOGICAL.

Does that make sense?

[Becky]

Originally Posted by Hopeful

I can. The deed of trust is in my name along with the bank's or the lienholder. The only claim the local government can make is if you don't pay your property taxes or other government assessments. When that happens, they have the right to place a lien on the property which is a high priority in the order of liens. They won't ever own it unless it goes to a tax sale for unpaid taxes, in which case, a private individual or investor will usually bid on it and it will go to them at a really cheap price. However, the government can also take your property through condemnation, escheat or a taking (say if they want to widen a road and part of your land is in the way). But, until they do that, they don't own the land as you want to think. Sorry...

If the government needs your property, they can take it from you "for the greater good"... to me, that says you didn't really own it.

On the flip side however, whether you or the government owns the property is irrelevant to argument of whether property should be taxed. It's really based on what you consider "owning" to mean. So, maybe just the fact that your able to do most things, and as a normal person usually able to keep your property, maybe that makes you feel like you own it. That's fine, let's say you do own your property. Fact is, if you lose your job, and are unable to find a new one, you can lose your house. You may have lived in that house for 20 years. If you can't afford the taxes on it any more, because you upgraded it over the years, then why does the government have the right to take it away from you? What gives government that right if they don't own your property? Why is owning property contingent on having enough money to pay $4,000 extra each year? My town is at an all time high of people losing their homes due to defaulting on their property tax. Why should you lose your home just cause you can't afford the tax on it? You don't make money off of your house, so that's money you LOSE every year. Most taxes is just money you never see, but for property tax, it's money you have, or often don't have, that gets taken away.

Why is that okay? why is that a good thing? My town is currently at an all time high in the homeless department as well btw. Our country spends a lot of money on homeless families that could be directed towards the mentally ill living on the street, if these families were given the right to keep their home.

[Becky]

Originally Posted by Bryan

so the government taxes the property you own, you don't really own it? that's odd logic.

okay, let me explain something really quick here, so people don't miss understand where I'm coming from.

If Bryan wants to tell me that what I'm saying does not make any sense to him, THEN it becomes my obligation to explain my case in a way that does make sense (or at least try).

IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT LOGIC, then it becomes HIS responsibility to prove that my belief is ILLOGICAL.

Perhaps I jumped to an incorrect conclusion and Brian really was not referring to logic... I'm taking two logic courses this semester, so it's always fresh on my mind. I did not want to assume he was using the word flippantly, so I asked him to prove why he called what I said "odd logic" which I interpreted as "illogical."

Of course, by "odd logic" he may have been referring to non classical logic, such as "other words" (a logic my professor says is DEFINITELY odd logic ) .. in which case I'd have to put the conversation on hold, because I wont get into that logic for another year.

[Hopeful]

Originally Posted by Becky

If the government needs your property, they can take it from you "for the greater good"... to me, that says you didn't really own it.

On the flip side however, whether you or the government owns the property is irrelevant to argument of whether property should be taxed. It's really based on what you consider "owning" to mean. So, maybe just the fact that your able to do most things, and as a normal person usually able to keep your property, maybe that makes you feel like you own it. That's fine, let's say you do own your property. Fact is, if you lose your job, and are unable to find a new one, you can lose your house. You may have lived in that house for 20 years. If you can't afford the taxes on it any more, because you upgraded it over the years, then why does the government have the right to take it away from you? What gives government that right if they don't own your property? Why is owning property contingent on having enough money to pay $4,000 extra each year? My town is at an all time high of people losing their homes due to defaulting on their property tax. Why should you lose your home just cause you can't afford the tax on it? You don't make money off of your house, so that's money you LOSE every year. Most taxes is just money you never see, but for property tax, it's money you have, or often don't have, that gets taken away.

Why is that okay? why is that a good thing? My town is currently at an all time high in the homeless department as well btw. Our country spends a lot of money on homeless families that could be directed towards the mentally ill living on the street, if these families were given the right to keep their home.

Becky, without going into why it is good or bad, do you know why the government taxes your property? There was a time when it didn't - a long time ago in the US.

[S.B.Nichols]

Originally Posted by Becky

My town is at an all time high of people losing their homes due to defaulting on their property tax. Why should you lose your home just cause you can't afford the tax on it?

I haven't been keeping a real close tab here, but has anyone mentioned that most of the time, your taxes are bunched into your home loan, so you don't have to worry about them, and then after you've paid off your loan, you just have to be disciplined enough to set aside some money for your taxes in an interest bearing account (but you're not paying a mortgage anymore). People who default on their property tax...eh...don't get me started.

[Becky]

No, do get started. If your going to criticize my neighbors, you better explain why.

In years past, the most common person to default were the Elderly and Farmers.

As for this nifty system you are referring to.. I've never heard of it. Are you sure it is not just something local?

[meatfinger]

Are you sure it is not just something local?

It's not. Rachell and I have the same plan on our home loan, and we live nowhere near Texas. It's an opportunity that's available from mortgage companies around the country.

[S.B.Nichols]

Originally Posted by Becky

No, do get started. If your going to criticize my neighbors, you better explain why.

In years past, the most common person to default were the Elderly and Farmers.

As for this nifty system you are referring to.. I've never heard of it. Are you sure it is not just something local?

I live in Princeton, Texas...everyone I know is either elderly or a farmer.

I know that at least with FHA loans, your tax is rolled into the loan. I believe that in a normal home loan you have the option to do so, and it just makes sense to go ahead and do it. You don't pay it separately while the bank holds the note. You pay the bank and the bank pays the tax. Its included in your morgage. (note, all the math that follows are estimates) If your house costs 100,000 and has a 2400 dollar a year tax, then your monthly house payment is 1200 (assuming 1% a month for the house and evenly divided tax payments). After the house is paid off, a person needs to be disciplined enough to put aside that monthly tax payment into an interest bearing account...in that case, you still come out ahead by 1000 a month.

It isn't a local system.

Farmers get hit a little harder because they (potentially) own more land than the average home owner, but the system remains the same, if the bank holds the note, your taxes are paid out monthly. My family has a lot of timber land; you wouldn't believe the taxes, its more than I make in a year, and that crop only pays off every 20 years.

I pay into my income tax quarterly, like most ministers. Every week I put aside 20% of my paycheck into a high interest bearing account, then drain it when the payments are due. If I miss a payment, I don't cry about it when my tax bill comes. Regardless of whether or not a property tax is fair, it is what it is, and someone who is buying property needs to be disciplined enough to pay it.

[Becky]

I'm sorry, I'm REALLY losing track of the argument at this point. Explain to me, what's your point with mentioning this tax account? Last I knew, there wasn't any such thing as high interest in this current economy.

Please remind me how any of that infers that people who default on their housing taxes deserve to lose their homes.

[Hopeful]

Originally Posted by Becky

I'm sorry, I'm REALLY losing track of the argument at this point. Explain to me, what's your point with mentioning this tax account? Last I knew, there wasn't any such thing as high interest in this current economy.

Please remind me how any of that infers that people who default on their housing taxes deserve to lose their homes.

First, the account they've mentioned is called an escrow account. Most banks collect a portion of taxes and insurance as a reserve to pay when the bills are due. Most people I know have this done for them and it becomes a part of their monthly payment.

They don't lose their homes to the government, they lose it to their lender. In residential loan documents, it becomes an event of default when you don't pay taxes or keep your property insured. The bank can declare a default and take action on your loan due to failure to maintain these covenants. The elderly may not have a loan on the property, but they still have the obligation to pay real estate taxes. Farmers may have a bank loan on the farm that is secured by the property, business and all other related assets that might be insured by the Federal government. In that case the Feds have all the rights of the original lender and in reality, the borrowers have pledged their farm to the Federal government as security for the loan. These are Federal programs that assist farmers in getting loans from a bank, because farms historically have been a very risky product type. As long as you don't default and give reason for the bank to take action against you, you own the land along with the bank.

However, it may help you if you understood why governments have the right to tax your property. Again, do you know what gave rise to this?