[Yoda_me07]

so my parents want me to go to university.
now i will have to study ultra hard to be able to get into what i want to (law/commerce).

i was reading up on the defence force, and how they would sponsor you to go to university, pay all your uni fees, and also pay you to study. (20k-30k).

however after you graduate, you have to work for them for a minimum of 6 years. (which is a big commitment, seeing as as the end of it, i'd be 28).

im wondering if i should take up the offer.

im worried as, i'm not sure if i would be able to gain a good civilian job at a law firm. (considering the best firms here deal with corporate litigation and or family law, and my 6 years of experience would only consist of international military law and military law).

i was thinking by the end of my minimum service obligation, i would see where i am ranked, and how financially stable i am, (if i would earn more in the defence force, then if i was a civilian lawyer).

i also want to be part of the Australian federal police force, and somehow work my way up into the police commissioner. Is this a good transfer? 28 years old, 6 years service in the military into the police force?
would i be given recognition for my credentials in the defence force. (ie. the rank of 2nd lieutenant at the least) , or would i have to go through the procedures of probationary constable, constable, senior constable, etc.

also im wondering how my millitary service would impede on relationships?
i want to get married and have kids,
however seeing as how i'd be in the defence force, and always traveling, this would hinder my role as a husband/father. so transfering into the police force seems ideal.

thanks.
im looking for advice, but im also trying to put my thoughts down onto paper.

are any of you in the armed services?

[jthomas1600]

Well I know nothing about how ya'll do things down under, but that sounds similar to military offers here in the U.S. I wonder, is the federal police force like the U.S. FBI, or state police? If it is, it seems like military experience would be a plus. I just got off the boat (I work off shore) after working with a man who had spent 8 years in the U.S. Marines. He has been married since before he enlisted. Lot's of military men have great marriages--it's just the away time can be tough for the wife. If you don't (and it sounds like you don't) have an aversion to military service, this sounds like an affordable way to get an education.

[DaGeek]

While I'm not in the armed services yet, I know many people who are and have been, and the military is an excellent way to get an education and get real-world experience. If you're looking at going into law enforcement afterwards, is it possible to go into the Army as Military Police, or however they do it there? That would definitely give you a headstart, though, if it's like the U.S., you'll still have to get civilian police training before you could work for them, as the laws and tactics are different.

Also, before joining the military, for any nation, consider the possible costs:

-You could go to war
-You could have to kill somebody
-You could be killed/wounded
-You could easily make plans, then have those plans put off or completely terminated due to the military sending you somewhere or doing whatever that they can do


If these are all things you can work with or are willing to do if necessary(you don't have to plan your life around any of them, but just accept that there are these inherent risks if you join up), the military may be great for you. Have you talked to a guidance counselor, perhaps at a school of law, or maybe even an actual experienced attorney?

[Yoda_me07]

Originally Posted by The Sleepy Armadillo

While I'm not in the armed services yet, I know many people who are and have been, and the military is an excellent way to get an education and get real-world experience. If you're looking at going into law enforcement afterwards, is it possible to go into the Army as Military Police, or however they do it there? That would definitely give you a headstart, though, if it's like the U.S., you'll still have to get civilian police training before you could work for them, as the laws and tactics are different.

Also, before joining the military, for any nation, consider the possible costs:

-You could go to war
-You could have to kill somebody
-You could be killed/wounded
-You could easily make plans, then have those plans put off or completely terminated due to the military sending you somewhere or doing whatever that they can do


If these are all things you can work with or are willing to do if necessary(you don't have to plan your life around any of them, but just accept that there are these inherent risks if you join up), the military may be great for you. Have you talked to a guidance counselor, perhaps at a school of law, or maybe even an actual experienced attorney?

thanks for that.
they have the millitary police here as well.
however the degee im hoping to get is commerce/law.
so i'd be a 'legal officer'.
i hope they don't send me to the actual battleground, that i'd just be in my country doing the paperwork. 'hence, legal officer'.

and i do have to do the basic police training.
i guess what i don't want is to be 30 (i'd be 30 by the time my mininum service period is over, and i'd be in the lowest position (probationary officer)

, whereas in the military, i'd of been lieutenant or higher. (legal officers are 2nd lieutenant already, and im sure in 6 years, no matter how incompetent i happen to be, i'd advance at least one rank)

i guess it's just a pride thing?
swallow my pride i guess.

[DaGeek]

Originally Posted by Yoda_me07

thanks for that.
they have the millitary police here as well.
however the degee im hoping to get is commerce/law.
so i'd be a 'legal officer'.
i hope they don't send me to the actual battleground, that i'd just be in my country doing the paperwork. 'hence, legal officer'.

and i do have to do the basic police training.
i guess what i don't want is to be 30 (i'd be 30 by the time my mininum service period is over, and i'd be in the lowest position (probationary officer)

, whereas in the military, i'd of been lieutenant or higher. (legal officers are 2nd lieutenant already, and im sure in 6 years, no matter how incompetent i happen to be, i'd advance at least one rank)

i guess it's just a pride thing?
swallow my pride i guess.

I'd highly suggest talking to a recruiter or someone in the know with the Australian Army, as well as maybe going down to a police station similar to one you'd want to join and ask them how that all works. It could well be that you could go from the military into the police force retaining good rank because, if it's like it is in the U.S., police departments love veterans. Here, if you're a vet, you almost have guaranteed job with police departments (not literally, but close enough). I think it'd be worth looking into .

As for it being a pride issue: It may be, but it also is you looking at what's in your best interest and planning ahead for the future. That's a very intelligent thing to do. Do not sign a contract until you know for sure what you're getting into. Bug 'em if you have to, but see if there's a way to do it how you'd like. If not, then you'll have to make the decision of if college being paid for by the Army is *that* important to you. Lots and lots of people go through college and pay for it fully themselves. You definitely aren't out of options if the Army turns out to be a dead end.

[Epaphras]

Having the military pay for your education, law school, etc. and provide you with six years of legal experience, seems like a great place to start a career.

However, there has to be a guarantee that you will actually be able to focus on law in the military. I don't know what it's like there, but here you tell them what you'd like to do but ultimately it's based on their needs. If they need you digging trenches on the front lines, that's where you go. So, if free uni is worth six years of doing something you hate, then go for it.

[bread man]

Is there a non-financial reason you're thinking of doing this? The HECS system in Australia pretty much means that anyone can afford to go to uni and you aren't required to pay back any part of your debt until you're earning over a certain amount of money (I can't remember the exact figure but it's over $40,000). The government will also give you discounts if you pay it back before you're earning that amount of money, which is a good idea. You also get great discounts if you pay upfront (20%). I'm not sure how much I'll owe at the end of my degree, but it won't be much more than $7,000 because I've been able to pay off a few semesters upfront.

I mean, sure, you owe the government money at the end, but that's better than owing them 6 years of your life, imo. It kind of sounds like just going straight to uni and going from there would be a better way to achieve your goals.

[Epaphras]

Originally Posted by bread man

Is there a non-financial reason you're thinking of doing this? The HECS system in Australia pretty much means that anyone can afford to go to uni and you aren't required to pay back any part of your debt until you're earning over a certain amount of money (I can't remember the exact figure but it's over $40,000). The government will also give you discounts if you pay it back before you're earning that amount of money, which is a good idea. You also get great discounts if you pay upfront (20%). I'm not sure how much I'll owe at the end of my degree, but it won't be much more than $7,000 because I've been able to pay off a few semesters upfront.

I mean, sure, you owe the government money at the end, but that's better than owing them 6 years of your life, imo. It kind of sounds like just going straight to uni and going from there would be a better way to achieve your goals.

Good points all around.

If you want to go into the force for its own sake, then it's a bonus that they'll train you in your desired career field. But I think it is a mistake to go into the military for the primary reason of career training and/or money for education, especially when there are plenty of non-military alternatives for paying for college and/or getting the career training you want. Your alternative options seem to be even more generous there than here (much more affordable education for one). I know in the American military there are basically two kinds of people: those who were "lured" in with promises of money for college and job training, who are now disillusioned doing a job they didn't sign up for in a war-zone they didn't choose, a lot of these people come from disadvantaged situations and for some even it's either the military, prison, or a life on the streets in endless poverty; the other group takes advantage of the education and job training benefits, but sees the military as a career in itself. They are not disillusioned because they know that signing up means getting sent to war.

It's amazing to me that you'll (bread man) graduate with only $7,000 in debt. The average college grad leaves with debt to the tune of $20-30,000, more if it's a private school. It amazes me to meet people who go to Christians schools that are $30,000 a year (no significant scholarships - all on loans) in programs like education or social work, graduate in four or five years with $100-120,000 in student loan debt, then take a job making $20-32,000 a year as a teacher or social worker. It just doesn't add up.

This may be a tangent, but does the waiver of payback if you make less than $40,000 discourage people to earn that much? In other words, are there people that intentionally take jobs that are less than the requirement, just to avoid paying back their loans? Is the interest accruing the whole time? Reason I ask - there are a lot of common arguments here in America from the anti-socialism crowd, and one of them is that all this "welfare" reduces incentives. Which seems silly to me - if college were practically free, how much more of an incentive do you need to get people interested in going to college?

[bread man]

It's amazing to me that you'll (bread man) graduate with only $7,000 in debt. The average college grad leaves with debt to the tune of $20-30,000, more if it's a private school. It amazes me to meet people who go to Christians schools that are $30,000 a year (no significant scholarships - all on loans) in programs like education or social work, graduate in four or five years with $100-120,000 in student loan debt, then take a job making $20-32,000 a year as a teacher or social worker. It just doesn't add up.

My degree is only costing about $2,000 per semester, which is pretty cheap. A few of my friends study at a private school where degrees cost upwards of $80,000. I was actually talking to a friend last night who is studying law there (and doing extremely well at it). He moved up from down south and he was saying that if we didn't have government programs like HECS and Fee Help (for private schools and post-graduate studies), there's no way he would have been able to do what he is doing now. I certainly don't envy the way things work in the US. It sounds really hard.

This may be a tangent, but does the waiver of payback if you make less than $40,000 discourage people to earn that much? In other words, are there people that intentionally take jobs that are less than the requirement, just to avoid paying back their loans? Is the interest accruing the whole time? Reason I ask - there are a lot of common arguments here in America from the anti-socialism crowd, and one of them is that all this "welfare" reduces incentives. Which seems silly to me - if college were practically free, how much more of an incentive do you need to get people interested in going to college?

I've heard of it happening. I've also heard people say things like "I only have to start paying back if I make more than $40,000 and I'll never earn that much anyway so it's not a problem". Personally, I plan to have my loan paid off as soon as is humanly possible and it seems like most people eventually do get it paid off, even if it takes a while. There's no interest on HECS or Fee Help, it gets indexed to the CPI each year but basically the amount remains the same. I don't think that it reducing incentives is a very good argument, personally. I have met a number of people at my university who probably would not be able to afford it otherwise.

Interestingly, my parents both went to uni in the 70s during a short window of time where the government actually made university free. It'll never happen again, but it was a pretty nice thing for them.

[zekthedeadcow]

Having been in the US JAG Corps I can tell you a little bit about how Military Law Offices work... though I was a Reservist, Active Duty was fairly similar.

1. Most of your time will be in the office doing 'legal stuff' That is what they pay you to do. The closest I've seen JAG Officers and Legal Specialists get to 'combat' is working up Rules of Engagement and explaining then in terms Infantry can understand ... we had a phrase "You can shoot them in the face... but don't cuss at them."

2 The Worst part for you wanting to go into commerce law is that you will liekly not do much of that. Most of it is Crimlaw, Legal Assistance (Wills and PoA's) and 'claims'... there is some contract law on every post but it's sop painfully straightforward that I handled it as a specialist (E4)

3. You will have combat training. You may even move the office out to the field for a couple months if you are at a combat oriented installation... a lot of bases are just regular offices though.

4. One of the highest ranking persons killed in Iraq was The Sergeant Major of the JAG Corps... he was in one helicopter and The Judge Advocate General was in another... The Sergeant Major's was the one hit.

5. 'Legal' is "Combat Service Support" and is not realistically expected to do combat... it'd be like sending one of the bands on a patrol ...but you will qualify on rifle and sidearm and grenade and maybe heavy weapons (AT4, MK19, SAW, etc.) Honestly, combat is hard... and infantry are very good at what they do... and they don't want you getting in the way.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Yoda_me07

so my parents want me to go to university.
now i will have to study ultra hard to be able to get into what i want to (law/commerce).

i was reading up on the defence force, and how they would sponsor you to go to university, pay all your uni fees, and also pay you to study. (20k-30k).

however after you graduate, you have to work for them for a minimum of 6 years. (which is a big commitment, seeing as as the end of it, i'd be 28).

im wondering if i should take up the offer.

im worried as, i'm not sure if i would be able to gain a good civilian job at a law firm. (considering the best firms here deal with corporate litigation and or family law, and my 6 years of experience would only consist of international military law and military law).

i was thinking by the end of my minimum service obligation, i would see where i am ranked, and how financially stable i am, (if i would earn more in the defence force, then if i was a civilian lawyer).

i also want to be part of the Australian federal police force, and somehow work my way up into the police commissioner. Is this a good transfer? 28 years old, 6 years service in the military into the police force?
would i be given recognition for my credentials in the defence force. (ie. the rank of 2nd lieutenant at the least) , or would i have to go through the procedures of probationary constable, constable, senior constable, etc.

also im wondering how my millitary service would impede on relationships?
i want to get married and have kids,
however seeing as how i'd be in the defence force, and always traveling, this would hinder my role as a husband/father. so transfering into the police force seems ideal.

thanks.
im looking for advice, but im also trying to put my thoughts down onto paper.

are any of you in the armed services?

While many countries are now offering lucrative incentives to get people into the service, the answer I told all three of my sons is this:

Going into the service involves risk and danger and the possibility of being sent into harms way nop matter what your duties are. If you wish to join to defend the freedoms you rcouontry have and protect others from tyranny--then go and serve with honor--but DO NOT, DO NOT, serve just to get some school money!! There are other ways to get college money than entering military service.