"And victory remains with Love..."

ICTHUS · 08-27-2008, 03:58 AM

So, I'm looking at my potential landlord(s) being a gay couple. Could be interesting, with me still questioning my faith.

I'm not convinced that living with a gay/other 'sinful' lifestyle landlord/boss/other position-of-authority person need necessarily be an awful thing for a Christian anyway. The Bible calls homosexuality an abomination...well, if the God of the Bible is real, then I stand before him with my very heart being in itself an abomination - the very chief of sinners, desperately wicked and deceitful. Who am I to think I am any better than my gay landlords who seem to be kind enough to let me into their home (though the deal isn't sealed yet) in spite of the fact that, for the moment, I'm unemployed and being helped by my parents (though that's going to change soon).

...the other thing I'm struggling with? Honestly, I loathe the thought of calling some of the people who profess the name of Christian, my brothers and sisters. A couple of such people are on this site, other examples are the wonderful godhatesfags people. They are simultaneously embarassing and infuriating.

And you guys who think I'm crazy...maybe it's better for you that I'm iffy about Christianity, so you can safely distance yourself from me.

ICTHUS · 08-28-2008, 02:25 AM

Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Matthew 7:9-11 (ESV)

...my dad told me, point blank, on the phone, that he loves me unconditionally and is always willing to help me, financially or whatever, if I am in a jam. I haven't communicated with him since June, so this is a shock.

There're a lot of reasons I haven't wanted to communicate with my dad recently. Dad assured me that those reasons are really non-issues. I don't need to feel like I've measured up or I've made progress with sorting through things in my life in order to talk to him. I can just talk to him.

My dad isn't even a Christian. He's just resolved to love me, no strings attached. It's a good feeling.

All of a sudden, Matt 7:11b is starting to utterly floor me...

In other news...I tried recording myself praying the Lord`s Prayer i nGaelige. I have a feeling most of it is really wrongly pronounced.

**MtlMom** · 08-28-2008, 08:17 AM

Ryan, is there a reason why you cannot clear out your PM box?

**Leboman** · 08-28-2008, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

Yeah, that'll work. Thanks, Lee. I put in an edit of my own because part of the post didn't make sense as you'd edited it, let me know if it's okay.

Thanks for being understanding of my crazy liberal ass.

This brings up an interesting point. Is my issue with Scripture, or with certain people? People like BSPE and Bobthecockroach, in this particular debate, are a great inspiration to me because their position preserves the dignity and equality of both genders in the argument. But what if he is wrong and the Comitatus1/AdamK et al camp is right?

Then the Bible presents a reprehensible degredation of the dignity of half of the world's population, something I can't stand for.

1- I don't think you're crazy.

2- I believe there is a balance between submission and equality. To be honest...I still struggle with my own interpretations of those passages. I haven't been following the thread in question (I left the Theology forum a long time ago) but I know that there are some who hold to views that I just can't accept...on both sides of the debate. In Christ we are all equal...I don't believe that is debatable. Yet...I see some of the "restrictions" placed on women and ask: were they cultural, were they limited to time, were they temporary? I'm still searching for what I believe. I encourage everyone to do the same.

ICTHUS · 08-28-2008, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtlMom

Ryan, is there a reason why you cannot clear out your PM box?

Yes. I don't want to pay for another paid membership, and PM's that are in there, I feel nostalgic about.

ICTHUS · 08-28-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Leboman

1- I don't think you're crazy.

2- I believe there is a balance between submission and equality. To be honest...I still struggle with my own interpretations of those passages. I haven't been following the thread in question (I left the Theology forum a long time ago) but I know that there are some who hold to views that I just can't accept...on both sides of the debate. In Christ we are all equal...I don't believe that is debatable. Yet...I see some of the "restrictions" placed on women and ask: were they cultural, were they limited to time, were they temporary? I'm still searching for what I believe. I encourage everyone to do the same.

My biggest problem is with the people who say that women should only take positions of authority in society at large when men abdicate them.

Thinking of one of my professors in particular - I think if this particular position on faculty (the Second Language Acquisiton and phonology spot) wasn't occupied by her in the position she is, with her particular gifts and quirks (she's deaf, for instance, and I think that colours a lot of how she conducts herself, in a positive way), but was occupied by someone else...well, it could be that I really just like this particular prof, but I think the Department would be at a detriment.

Listening to Liam Ó Maonlaí's sung version of the Lord's Prayer on Rían, I'm fairly sure I butchered it in my recording above. I forgot that the 'f' in 'féin' is actually pronounced as an 'h', for instance, so 'féin' is actually 'hein'

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 08-29-2008, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

So, I'm looking at my potential landlord(s) being a gay couple. Could be interesting, with me still questioning my faith.

I'm not convinced that living with a gay/other 'sinful' lifestyle landlord/boss/other position-of-authority person need necessarily be an awful thing for a Christian anyway. The Bible calls homosexuality an abomination...well, if the God of the Bible is real, then I stand before him with my very heart being in itself an abomination - the very chief of sinners, desperately wicked and deceitful. Who am I to think I am any better than my gay landlords who seem to be kind enough to let me into their home (though the deal isn't sealed yet) in spite of the fact that, for the moment, I'm unemployed and being helped by my parents (though that's going to change soon).

...the other thing I'm struggling with? Honestly, I loathe the thought of calling some of the people who profess the name of Christian, my brothers and sisters. A couple of such people are on this site, other examples are the wonderful godhatesfags people. They are simultaneously embarassing and infuriating.

And you guys who think I'm crazy...maybe it's better for you that I'm iffy about Christianity, so you can safely distance yourself from me.

scripture on the subject...

1 Corinthians 5: 9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

So, I would have a problem if they consider themselves believers. If not, no problem to me. The scripture seems pretty obvious to give a pass to being friends and associates of those in this world who are sinners. And frankly, I think it is good sometimes to meet with them. It seems to be the sort of thing Christ did.

About the PM's. There is a download PM's button. Its useful every now and again to clear stuff out without losing archives.

ICTHUS · 08-29-2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

About the PM's. There is a download PM's button. Its useful every now and again to clear stuff out without losing archives.

Aha. Thank you, I knew that was around somewhere.

Fixed. I may actually get a paid membership now that it may benefit me significantly again.

comitatus1 · 09-01-2008, 08:48 AM

[quote=ICTHUS;3303949]I'm really struggling with this thread.

I don't think you are struggling with the thread. I think you are struggling to accept what the Scriptures have to say.

Quote:

To me, as someone struggling with accepting the very notion of the authority of God in the Bible, this whole thread looks like a patriarchal Old Boys Club trying to exert authority over women and just hoping they'll submit to you. I mean, Comitatus admitted somewhere that he keeps his wife on an allowance, unless I'm mis-remembering something.

Actually, my wife posted some information as to how WE have decided to handle finances in our household. My wife doesn't get an "allowance". She gets a certain amount of money to take care of the responsibilities that she is entrusted with, just as I do.

Quote:

That, to me, is a devaluation of another human being who ought to be looked at as one's equal - or perhaps even one's better - in every respect - someone intelligent enough to speak to about matters that interest you intellectually, someone emotionally strong enough to be able to be there for you when you need her, someone mirthful enough to laugh with you when times are good, and support you when times are bad - just as you are those things to her.

The things you are talking about here are NOT at all in conflict with what Paul says about marriage in Ephesians. Here is what you are doing: You are taking Scripture, discarding what it means, replacing that meaning with your own thoughts and feelings, and then criticizing it. I strive to love my wife as Christ loves the Church and I have all the things from her that you mention above.

Quote:

But then I look at the Gospels and see that Jesus taught..and lived..that the way to be a leader is to serve the one you would lead. Thank God that those people (Comitatus1 et al) and their warped Christianity are not the standard of truth, but Jesus is.

Forgive me for saying so, but from what I understand you don't even believe Christianity to be true, so how can you judge me as to what I believe?

All you have really said so far is how you FEEL about the subject. I have yet to see any reasonable conclusions from Scripture itself.

Quote:

*edit* I almost thought about deleting that rant. I didn't because, if I'm wrong, I want to go through the painful process of being redeemed and shown the error of my thinking.

If that is true, then we can discuss is.

What does this mean, exegetically speaking?

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
Eph 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Eph 5:27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

To me, it all depends on the parallel:

Christ: Church = Man:Wife

Can that parallel be broken?

No.

Chris

ICTHUS · 09-01-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by comitatus1

I don't think you are struggling with the thread. I think you are struggling to accept what the Scriptures have to say.

Quote:

Forgive me for saying so, but from what I understand you don't even believe Christianity to be true, so how can you judge me as to what I believe?

If you're right about everything and the Bible teaches what you take it to mean it does...then yeah, that's true.

Sorry, but a religion which claims that half of the world's population can't even take secular leadership positions (like a university professor, for instance) unless weak men abdicate said positions (you have claimed this elsewhere on CGR, if I'm not mistaken) is repugnant to common sense and the majority of my experience. And if assent to this point of doctrine is required to come to faith in Christ...which it feels like it is..or it feels like my assent to this is somehow taken as a mark of orthodoxy and biblical faithfulness.

...I guess I am a heathen.

Really, I think those who interpret the Bible as you do simply use it as a mask for male chauvinism disguised as piety. The worst form of ignorance - misogynism, homophobia, and racism disguised as pious deeds and beliefs.

ICTHUS · 09-01-2008, 03:42 PM

New sig is from the Táin Bó Culaigne, which is a great (probably the best known) pre-Christian Irish epic. I say pre-Christian because some of the people and events it mentions date the story itself to somewhere between 30 years BC and 30 years AD (I don't remember the exact years off hand), though the earliest extant manuscripts we have date from the 12th century, at which time Christianity had been in Ireland for about 800 years. I've just started to read it (translated into English of course, as I can't really read Old/Middle Irish...I can't even read modern Irish well yet.

), and I'm liking it thus far.

Basically, in that scene, Setanta kills Culann (or Culainn's) wolfhound in self defense. In payment for the beast, Setanta offers himself to take over the responsibilities of the dog until a replacement can be reared, thus becoming Cúcúlainn (The hound of Culainn)

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 09-01-2008, 05:40 PM

[QUOTE=comitatus1;3307180]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

I'm really struggling with this thread.

I don't think you are struggling with the thread. I think you are struggling to accept what the Scriptures have to say.

Actually, my wife posted some information as to how WE have decided to handle finances in our household. My wife doesn't get an "allowance". She gets a certain amount of money to take care of the responsibilities that she is entrusted with, just as I do.

The things you are talking about here are NOT at all in conflict with what Paul says about marriage in Ephesians. Here is what you are doing: You are taking Scripture, discarding what it means, replacing that meaning with your own thoughts and feelings, and then criticizing it. I strive to love my wife as Christ loves the Church and I have all the things from her that you mention above.

Forgive me for saying so, but from what I understand you don't even believe Christianity to be true, so how can you judge me as to what I believe?

All you have really said so far is how you FEEL about the subject. I have yet to see any reasonable conclusions from Scripture itself.

If that is true, then we can discuss is.

What does this mean, exegetically speaking?

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
Eph 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Eph 5:27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

To me, it all depends on the parallel:

Christ: Church = Man:Wife

Can that parallel be broken?

No.

Chris

I noticed you left out verse 21 again dishonestly . I don't have to remind you again do I that there is only one verb occurrence between the 2 verses in Greek indicating that they are of necessity the same sentence because every sentence must have a verb and subject.

I would argue that your exegesis of the passage tends to be very biased and frankly wrong. You ask if a parellel an be broken. I apparently need to remind you of the phrase "every analogy breaks down at some point."

Without being Christ, creator of the universe, a lot breaks down in a hurry.

Really Chris, what is your point here? To be right at the expense of someone else's faith, even if you are wrong?

ICTHUS · 09-02-2008, 01:49 AM

So, this will probably not be of interest to anyone but me, but Julie Fowlis is releasing a new album with a few other people, part of which will be in Irish and part in Gaidhlig (Scottish Gaelic), her native tongue. I think she will actually be singing a few songs in Irish herself, which is exciting. She is married to a speaker of Irish and an incredible musician in his own right, Éamon Doorley.

Music like this...outside of the testimony to the grace of God contained in the Scriptures...music like this testifies that God is good and has bestowed men and women with simply astounding gifts.

*edit* It's come to my attention that Julie Fowlis is planning a tour of the west coast in 2009 sometime. I'm trying to get the people that run my school's auditorium to host her show. *gleeful*

ICTHUS · 09-03-2008, 04:31 PM

So I apparently assumed in error that my roommates were all Chinese. This is evidently not true. I live with two Chinese guys and a Russian-Canadian guy.

Fyodor (the Russian) was duly impressed after I was like "Wow, you have the same name as Dostoyevsky!"

Him: You've read Dostoyevsky?
Me: Uh..yeah. Haven't a lot of people?
Him: *gleeful*

Actually, I didn't recognize what he said at first, because he gave the dimunitive form of his name, which I caught as "Feyda". He spelled it, and it reminded me of Fyodor, so I asked him about it.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 09-03-2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

So I apparently assumed in error that my roommates were all Chinese. This is evidently not true. I live with two Chinese guys and a Russian-Canadian guy.

Fyodor (the Russian) was duly impressed after I was like "Wow, you have the same name as Dostoyevsky!"

Him: You've read Dostoyevsky?
Me: Uh..yeah. Haven't a lot of people?
Him: *gleeful*

What province is he from? I