[OneHope]

I have lots of time to think with my current job and recently I've been thinking about the ideas of individualism and collectivism and their relation to things like racism, sexism and homophobia. Ron Paul puts my thoughts more eloquently then I could when he states that:

Originally Posted by Ron Paul

Racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism, the mindset that views humans strictly as members of groups rather than as individuals. Racists believe that all individuals who share superficial physical characteristics are alike: as collectivists, racists think only in terms of groups. By encouraging Americans to adopt a group mentality, the advocates of so-called "diversity" actually perpetuate racism.

I guess my question is, to what extent do things like Pride festivals, the NAACP, affirmative action, etc. perpetuate racism. Obviously, the NAACP did a lot to bring about civil rights for black people, but it also probably plays a part in groupthink towards black people. I think it was Bill Cosby who made the observation that when a white person murders someone we think that it is just an individual gone astray, but when a black person murders someone, the entire race is implicated (whether we acknowledge it with words or just our thoughts).

Morgan Freeman has said that he does not like Black History Month, because why should black history have its own month as the history of black people is as much a part of general history as the history of white people.

In Canada (last I heard), certain companies are given tax breaks for hiring a certain percentage of ethnic minorities/women. I attempte to apply for a government job recently and the online application asked if I was a woman or a native american.

To what extent does all this perpetuate racism, etc. and to what extent does it help to decrease prejudice?

[TunerSteve]

I agree with your assessment as well. I'm looking forward to the day when we stop celebrating "the first _____(pick your gender/race/religous affiliation) to be elected, or named supreme court justice, or go to outerspace, etc. The day when we don't judge someone's accomplishments, by also mentioning their race/gender, (etc), then we truly judge them on the accomplishment alone.

[Nate]

See, the problem is that racism is not "simply" anything, so Ron Paul's analysis is pretty much useless after that third word. Racism, and sexism and homophobia and misogyny and whatever else you care to throw in the mix, is a complex, deep-seated social phenomena that cuts to the very heart of the history of human civilization. Forget Bill Cosby; Pierce Pettis has a much more insightful commentary:

"It is a legacy passed down to you and me, what we learn to believe, we never question these things.
It is a legacy, a wild and a bitter seed blown across these fertile fields where the roots run deep."

The roots of racism "run deep," far deeper than mere collectivism. Racists, both real and imagined, conscious and subconscious, do not just hate "blacks" in general, but actual living, breathing, individual human beings that they encounter in their individual lives. While there may be collectivism involved, that is not the nature of the beast. If it were, it would not be a terribly difficult problem to overcome.

And, see, you're falling into the same trap, into the same collectivism that you bemoan. You say "black people" as if such an aggregate actually exists as some unique social identity, but by your own definition that statement is racism. The fact that you have no problem talking about "black people" as a group identity while denouncing racism shows that collectivism is not what it's about.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by Nate

Racists, both real and imagined, conscious and subconscious, do not just hate "blacks" in general, but actual living, breathing, individual human beings that they encounter in their individual lives.

While racists can and do hate individuals it wouldn't really be racism if it weren't based on framing a group of people in a particular way. So it is accurately called a collectivist mindset but there are certainly other angles of approach (which you've highlighted).

[Chrysostom]

Originally Posted by OneHope

I have lots of time to think with my current job and recently I've been thinking about the ideas of individualism and collectivism and their relation to things like racism, sexism and homophobia.

The communal is inescapable. Even if you make things individualistic you'll wind up with a lone sacrificial victim who will be ritualistically invested with the problems of a community. The question is not whether there are (or should be) non-individualistic communal entities but what should really bind a community.

[Nate]

Originally Posted by slap_j

While racists can and do hate individuals it wouldn't really be racism if it weren't based on framing a group of people in a particular way. So it is accurately called a collectivist mindset but there are certainly other angles of approach (which you've highlighted).

What I meant [mostly] was that the "collectivist mindset" of racism rarely manifests itself as hatred of a particular group in general, but rather manifests itself as hatred or prejudice toward particular people within that group. It may not spring up from individualistic roots, but the "wild and bitter seed" always falls back down on individuals.

It's really difficult to explain what it is I'm trying to say.

To me, racism is a two-step process, both parts of which are logical fallacies. It starts with individuals we dislike, whose various groups we assign the dislikeable traits of the one member to (fallacy of composition). Then, we move back down the ladder by divvying out the perceived negative traits of the group to other members thereof (fallacy of division).

I don't think, if this depiction of the racism "process" (so to speak) is even remotely accurate that it can be said that "racists think only in terms of groups." It's just not true. Racists hate that black person, prejudge that hispanic person, and disenfranchise those native americans. It begins and ends with individualism and perceived individual relationships or traits.

[OneHope]

Originally Posted by Nate

The roots of racism "run deep," far deeper than mere collectivism. Racists, both real and imagined, conscious and subconscious, do not just hate "blacks" in general, but actual living, breathing, individual human beings that they encounter in their individual lives. While there may be collectivism involved, that is not the nature of the beast. If it were, it would not be a terribly difficult problem to overcome.

I realize that racism is a problem that runs incredibly deep, something that has existed probably as long as people have looked different. It would be hard to say that collectivism caused racism in the 18th century. My question is, does collectivism today perpetuate or help eliminate racism? Does, for example, asking if someone is black, hispanic, chinese, caucasian, etc. on a census, job application, university application, etc. perpetuate racism by making these supposed divisions between people (which are based on very little substantial or significant genetic difference) more engrained in people's minds? At the very least, tax breaks for companies that hire a certain percentage of 'visible minority' employees is bound to cause resentment among people who believe/or actually are passed over for employment or promotion in favour of someone who is of a different ethnicity. I remember my Polish driving instructor always complaing about how he was passed over for a police officer job during a period of a very liberal provincial government (which had instituted a policy of affirmative action for civil service jobs) because he 'didn't look different enough'.

Originally Posted by Nate

And, see, you're falling into the same trap, into the same collectivism that you bemoan. You say "black people" as if such an aggregate actually exists as some unique social identity, but by your own definition that statement is racism.

I disagree. I need to name the groups which society allocates people into (or maybe it doesn't, that's the question) to discuss the topic. You see, I don't believe that an aggregate of 'black people' or 'white people' should exist, but I believe it does exist. Ultimately, my question is does society perpetuate racism through collectivism. Although, in the end, I realize that people should be free to group themselves in whichever way they want and that I have no right to stop such groups.

[Chrysostom]

Originally Posted by OneHope

Although, in the end, I realize that people should be free to group themselves in whichever way they want and that I have right to stop such groups.

These groups are defined within the context of a larger community, and there they are defined over against other groups. So to define one's own group is to define others' group(s), and I suspect you would be against that kind of freedom.