[TravisR]

Superman vs. the Hulk? Is that even a serious question? I'd wager that even on Superman's worst day, the Hulk wouldn't stand a chance. I'm not a fan of Super Man, mind you. I don't like the idea of a hero who has so many powers that he seems unbeatable. (kryptonite aside) But still, the Hulk doesn't seem to have anything going for him but super strength.

And now I'm not a super hero buff or anything, but doesn't the Hulk exist in the Marvel universe while Super Man exists in the DC universe?

[Akshay]

Originally Posted by TravisR

Superman vs. the Hulk? Is that even a serious question? I'd wager that even on Superman's worst day, the Hulk wouldn't stand a chance. I'm not a fan of Super Man, mind you. I don't like the idea of a hero who has so many powers that he seems unbeatable. (kryptonite aside) But still, the Hulk doesn't seem to have anything going for him but super strength.

And now I'm not a super hero buff or anything, but doesn't the Hulk exist in the Marvel universe while Super Man exists in the DC universe?

I think I am now entirely sure that the Hulk as depicted in World War Hulk can take on Superman. He is incredibly intelligent, virtually indestructible, and has limitless energy. Even after Sentry causes him (keep in mind Sentry's power are very similar to Superman's) to turn to Banner after a really hard blow, he was able to turn back into the Hulk moments later. The amount of energy he has is amazing. At the time time that Bruce turned back into the Hulk, Sentry was already wiped out. It took Iron Man to shoot some lasers from space while he was still in a weakened state to turn him back to Banner.
I think the argument about Superman having other powers doesn't hold up to strong because Superman still has to physically attack him. Superman has the power of flight, so does Iron Man, Sentry, Dr. Strange and many others that he beat. Superman's heat vision seems comparable to whatever it is Iron Man fires from his hands, doesn't seem to be much of a problem. See-through vision is a moot point cause it's probably kind of obvious as to where he is. Super-breath doesn't even really compare to Black Bolt's power. Super speed once again I bring up Sentry.
I dunno, I still think at best it would be a draw. I can't imagine a scenario in which Superman would always win. Some of you mentioned that he could throw him into the Sun, first that isn't an easy task, and second The Hulk could do the same to him.

[Jeffrey]

The Sentry is plagued by psychoses, and thanked the Hulk for giving him a chance to not hold back. Superman is an exceptional thinker and strategist. Just sayin', Sentry is the Marvel version of Superman, meaning he's riddled with doubt and delusions.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by Akshay

I can't imagine a scenario in which Superman would always win. Some of you mentioned that he could throw him into the Sun, first that isn't an easy task, and second The Hulk could do the same to him.

Which would be a mistake since Superman gets his powers from the sun.

[Skeeter]

The major limitations on the Hulk in this battle are his lack of super-speed and his lack of flight. With Superman's super-speed, there's no chance for the Hulk to even hit Superman. With Superman's flight, he can easily stay out of danger. There's no question of who would win this battle.

[tlj009]

The major limitations on the Hulk in this battle are his lack of super-speed and his lack of flight. With Superman's super-speed, there's no chance for the Hulk to even hit Superman. With Superman's flight, he can easily stay out of danger. There's no question of who would win this battle.

Has superman never been hit by someone without super-speed?

[Skeeter]

Again, that's an issue I have with Superman. If he used his powers at all intelligently, he would be undefeatable. That was a major issue I had with the whole Doomsday fight as well.

So, if he doesn't use his powers intelligently, sure, Hulk could get some licks in. But, I'm hoping that at some point he would figure out that he can avoid getting hit with his super-speed.

[Jeffrey]

Possibly the Hulk could take the place of Doomsday and he and Supes would go down together.

I agree with Skeeter about the Doomsday fight. I wish the dialogue and art had done a better job of showing that Doomsday's blows were nothing Superman had ever felt before. That fight also suffered from the period of DC history it came in - the Justice League was the Martian Manhunter in disguise, Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, minor villainess/heroine Maxima, so forth and so on. The stuff going on in the books of Batman and Wonder Woman prevented them from being involved. I mean, seriously, a battle to the death for Superman and the only big players are J'onn incognito and Guy Gardner (no slam on Guy, who was a powerhouse)? If Superman is going to die, every superhero needs to rally to his support.

Skeeter, DC should hire the two of us to write a mini-series set during the Battle of Metropolis from Infinite Crisis, from the point of view of The Question.

edit: Oh, and to be hammy: I think the only way Banner and Kent would fight is if Kent was convinced the Hulk was a villain and Banner thought Superman had done something grievous. If I wrote their fight, the Hulk in the midst of battle would go out of his way to protect an innocent, his primal good nature overcoming his rage, and Superman would realize he wasn't facing another Doomsday. I think Superman has the empathy and people skills to calm the Hulk down.

In a joint Marvel/DC universe, there'd be no need for the Sentry, and instead I really think Superman and the Hulk would forge that friendship. Clark knows what it's like to feel alone, and to have to be extra-careful with near-limitless powers.

[Skeeter]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

I agree with Skeeter about the Doomsday fight. I wish the dialogue and art had done a better job of showing that Doomsday's blows were nothing Superman had ever felt before. That fight also suffered from the period of DC history it came in - the Justice League was the Martian Manhunter in disguise, Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, minor villainess/heroine Maxima, so forth and so on. The stuff going on in the books of Batman and Wonder Woman prevented them from being involved. I mean, seriously, a battle to the death for Superman and the only big players are J'onn incognito and Guy Gardner (no slam on Guy, who was a powerhouse)? If Superman is going to die, every superhero needs to rally to his support.

I completely agree. I love Booster Gold, Blue Beetle, and Guy Gardner, but looking back at the story, it's really rather pathetic. I do like the nod to the storyline in the Countdown to Infinite Crisis one-shot, where Blue Beetle paid Booster Gold his dues by mentioning that he was one of the first heroes trying to stand in the way of Doomsday.

Skeeter, DC should hire the two of us to write a mini-series set during the Battle of Metropolis from Infinite Crisis, from the point of view of The Question.

Heck yes they should. Actually, I'm going through a period of doubt in my writing skills. I'd love to write comic books, but I always come up short whenever I attempt anything. I'm still trying to hack my way through a short story/novella titled "Superhero Scholarship." Very old-school, kooky superhero fun. I've got most of the characters thought out, but I keep getting hung up on the plot. It's frustrating and discouraging.

edit: Oh, and to be hammy: I think the only way Banner and Kent would fight is if Kent was convinced the Hulk was a villain and Banner thought Superman had done something grievous. If I wrote their fight, the Hulk in the midst of battle would go out of his way to protect an innocent, his primal good nature overcoming his rage, and Superman would realize he wasn't facing another Doomsday. I think Superman has the empathy and people skills to calm the Hulk down.

In a joint Marvel/DC universe, there'd be no need for the Sentry, and instead I really think Superman and the Hulk would forge that friendship. Clark knows what it's like to feel alone, and to have to be extra-careful with near-limitless powers.

I like it. I think The Sentry works really well in the Marvel universe, but I think you have the right idea if the two universes were to merge.

[Jeffrey]

The Sentry is indeed a very cool idea for Earth-616. I like the idea of his psychoses keeping writers from using him in every storyline. I'm okay with Marvel having a more earth-bound deus ex machina, but in true Marvel fashion he needs to have a screw loose.

[Skeeter]

Definitely. It's a lot easier to write The Sentry out of a storyline but very difficult to do the same with Superman.

[Jeffrey]

Which is indeed one of the weak points of the DC Universe - any world-shattering event that does not have Superman must be clandestine, or be built on weak premises.

Morrison's Seven Soldiers mini-series offered the tale of a group of heroes, most of whom never encountered each other, fighting a threat that had shattered a small-time group of heroes from the first half of the 20th century. The premise made sense - the threat didn't want to attract the Justice League, and the original band of heroes were second-stringers from an era pre-Superman who wanted to make their own name as a group of do-gooders.

However, this illustrates that the current DCU had the struggle of presenting a major situation, one that has the necessary dire consequences to make for good superhero pathos, without Superman. Either they must create some often convoluted and fragile reason for Superman's absence or restrict the heroic players to the third tier, a tier that has only passing contact with Superman or would rather not, out of pride or humility, involve the Last Son.

After all, if a major hero like the Flash discovered a clandestine, below-the-surface threat to the world, why wouldn't he just tell Superman? A good writer might construct a reason, such as: the threat will burst into full bloom at the slightest hint of Superman, so the Flash must play things carefully. The problem is that this can really only be done once or twice before the reader finds that excuse boring, lazy, or worse yet: something that denigrates Superman's position in the DCU because he is so easily pushed to the background when a major threat looms.

Perhaps the writer will make the Flash in a headstrong moment decide not to consult the League and Superman. This is out-of-character, and the writer will find herself or himself in a minefield of choices that could make the story so out of step with who the Flash is to be unaccessible, or make him seem like the culprit for tackling a major threat irresponsibly - i.e. the Flash is the villain of sorts because he could have easily ended the threat with one phone call. The other major risk is that continually making the Flash find reasons not to contact Superman will change the fabric of his character's, well, character, making him seem to be a self-centered, brash, stubborn loner.

However, major crises that have Superman are risky. Often writers infuriate fans by having Superman get his cape kicked by the threat - after all, having the core heroes ravaged by a villain is a frequent shortcut to establishing the threat (I enjoy when writers have a villain brutalize some out-of-the-way minor team of heroes - as if that really made the villain threatening to the fans). However, this can make Superman seem devalued. Of course, Superman shines in a major crisis, but when every story eventually has Superman, the character is overexposed (as Wolverine is now in comics) and no longer pulls the reader the way he once did.

Bruce Timm and Co. embraced this difficulty by making the Justice League of their animated universe a catch-all for the heroes of the earth. Therefore, the JL could handle all threats - each hero is a member, and can enlist the help of Batman, Superman, etc. I loved the The Question vs. Project Cadmus arc in JLU, because The Question stared down Superman (gave me friggin' chills) about facts the League was covering up, and then later the Huntress cleverly tracked down Superman and teamed up with the Man of Steel to search for the missing Question. Third-tier characters rubbing elbows with the first tier - great writing.

The problem is that this near-totalitarian League structure hampers one of the core elements of a superhero: his or her status as a maverick (Wolverine's archetype), a loner (Batman, or nowadays more The Question or other lower-tier non-powered heroes), an outcast (the Creeper, the Punisher), or a person apart from the world for noble or tragic reasons (Superman, Hellboy).

So in order to establish their characters as heroes, the writers might eventually (as JLU did) focus more and more on the lower-tier characters, risking the relegation the main heroes to plot devices. Since those core heroes who built the universe are now the authority, "the man" as it were, they are less accessible and are often easier to present as the hurdles hampering new heroes from achieving their goals.

This is an advantage of the Marvel Universe. Now, in the Marvel Universe, very few heroes are non-powered or simply technology-based. In the DCU, many influential characters are non-powered (Batman, Nightwing, Oracle, Green Arrow, Steel, etc.). Marvel has Iron Man (not really anymore, since he's internalized parts of his power), Hawkeye, etc., but overall, to cut it as a major or minor hero in Marvel, you have to possess powers (the overused X Gene allowed for this to be relatively easy). In the DCU, one can be a formidable hero or villain without powers.

That said, few Marvel heroes have the staggering level of power that Superman has. Marvel heroes, when written properly, can't suddenly pop over to Genosha in two seconds, or what have you. And due to anti-mutant pressure and other aspects of Marvel's more reasonably-dysfunctional Western world (compared to DC's), superheroes are more decentralized in organization, yet more relational due to the necessity of sticking together.

Major threats looming in the Marvel Universe draw everyone from the woodwork, but it's much easier to explain why Captain America or Dr. Strange or Spider-Man just couldn't make it. Fans often bemoan a major story where major characters like those are missing, mainly for aesthetic reasons, but it's rarer for Marvel fans to construct a plausible case why the absence of a major superhero is a universe-undermining plot hole as it would be for the DCU.

[Skeeter]

I like how "Identity Crisis" handled this issue, making the central conceit something the main characters wanted to hide from Superman. This was an entirely legitimate way to have Superman largely uninvolved in something major (the death of a beloved Justice Leaguer's wife).

(I enjoy when writers have a villain brutalize some out-of-the-way minor team of heroes - as if that really made the villain threatening to the fans)

I was utterly furious when New Avengers did this with Alpha Flight. I have an almost complete collection of Alpha Flight volume one and love the characters. It was a terrible thing to do to a team with a lot of history.

[boywithshoes]

I think if DC went all the way to give Superman practically every super power they'd make him be able to beat The Hulk.

And he did: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_vs._Marvel

[Cam42]

Originally Posted by Akshay

Me and my roommate were arguing about this. I said the Hulk, because he has limitless power and his regenerative abilities are at the same levels of like wolverine.

Hulk would just have to bring some kryptonite to the party and it's over.