[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by guitarplayer917

Your looking for it to be christian right? The Bible says to Sustain from all appearances of evil. If DH is preforming to secular standards to get too secular people, then they are "wrong", in that area. the Bible says to shine for them, not preform for 'em. And you might be able to undrstand the lyrics, but what about other folks who can't. They sound just like "Kiss", an 80's band that screams, i couldn't tell the difference between them. And te word Kiss stands for "Knights In Satan's Service". That's nice ain't it? I don't listen to Kiss, but my dad did in his younger days and pointed it out in wal-mart, while they were playing it. And also, they Bible says to make a joyful noise unto the Lord and honor and glorify him, would you want somebody to worship you by screaming their head off and looking like those who despise you? I ain't dissing DH, but i ain't praising them either.

Two things, one echoing Skeeter (the whole point of my post echoing Skeeter, as well):

1) you play guitar. There are Christians that believe because of the excesses of both rock and roll and country culture that are a major part of how society views the genre (think: rock and roll lifestyle, girls screaming at the sight of bands, country stars known for alcoholism, etc.), associating with that kind of music even just by playing the instruments associated with it is wrong. How far will you take your convictions?

2) cowboys were often party to great evils in the Westward expansion of the United States, both to Native Americans, yes, but to other American settlers as well. Will you associate with them when to many educated folks, such as myself, there is an element of evil to who they were?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by guitarplayer917

But jeans is not an appearance of evil, don't wanna go walking 'round with nuthin' on do ya lol. It's just that if you walk into a bar drink a beer and say your a christian, there gonna laugh and probably throw you out right?

Two things again:

1) No, you can wear other outfits. Part of the reason some more traditional Christians dislike jeans is because on both men and women they hug tightly, accentuating the curves. You could wear a number of outfits in order to make sure to offend no one.

2) If you walk into a bar and say you're a Christian, nothing will happen. I've witnessed to bartenders. The Psalms make it clear that one of the reasons God inspired agriculture was so man could produce alcohol. When you call something evil that God delights in, whose side should I take?

Lest Bob the Cockroach comes in here and accuses us of beating you with logic and being mean, I wanted to let you know that most of our reaction comes from the fact that you've accused of us of evil but are backing down a bit as if that accusation isn't a major thing, and you also hold what appears to be an incomplete understanding of Scripture.

The latter is the bigger thing to me. For one, I worry that you're going into the world and using urban legends like "Knights in Satan's Service" and in doing so, associate Christianity with superstition and poor research. If we look like we're purposefully ignorant, the world will not want to hear us tell our story of redemption, much less demolish every argument and pretension that sets itself up against Christ.

If we sound harsh, it may be because we feel a bit hurt that things we've spent a long time thinking about and praying over have been called evil, and with poor reasoning. But really, we want to see you come to a realization on the issue. You may not end up agreeing with us, and you may end up changing our minds, but since we've had this debate many times on CGR, forgive our weariness.

[guitarplayer917]

I really don't care what others say bout Stryper or Petra or about me, i care what God says about me. I ain't calling your music evil, i just want to discuss it, because i have freinds who are veeerrry conservative, its where i get the Kiss thing from, and mom says i get waaayy to defensive, so ill forgive ya jeffrey if you'll forgive me for bein' so jumpy. lol. I don't wanna argue or get a bad rep, but i want to see music from all perspectives, so maybe you could tell me the suff in the other debates you've had so i can unnerstand it more. And on the cowboy thing, its the same thing demon hunter is doing, im a cowboy, and folks that dont live where i do associae that with Spiritual indian thingys and shooting people and all that other bs, pardon me. Demon hunter is known as a heavy metal group, right? so heavy metal groups do drugs and womanize and party a lot. but thats what it talks about appearances of evil right? I don't wanna come off wrong, but i don't wana be like my freinds a say "thats evil, we will not lower ourselves to that", i like to see things from alll sides. i wanna descuss music, not clothes, thats a womens job lol. Would someone explain what "Butt Rock" is..

I am not trying to debate, i ask only that you tell me what your convctions are to compare them with my own to see if i can improve my walk with Christ, not to change you.

as for the cowboy thing, were you here a 100 years ago? i worked with a 90 year old man who still breaks horses today. A true cowboy, you will find in him. If you want to tell me about myths and legends, ya might wanna double check your philosophy. All the stories, were "brightened" for their children an enhanced bedtie story. A true cowboy works with cows. He respects women, asks other opinions and takes them into consideration, he respects the law and follows God. there were [I]some[I] who did what you describe. Mostly, they found work and a way to survive, the 90 year old man shows me (mind you, NOT tells, shows), that they started a town, and it was where he grew up. All the things above, you would find in this old man. He aint in no wheelchair cause he takes care of himself and trusts in God. The spiritual thingy you describe, was with the indians. this old man, he watched the indians, and grew up with other cowboys. I am very proud to be known as a cowboy, as proud to be american, and a christian.

[guitarplayer917]

oh and i don't expect to change your minds, everyone has a different belief. Like i said, i want to discuss. I do NOT call your stuff evil, but has an appearance of evil, like the cowboy/rock band thing...

In answer to thesteve-
I am not trying to be a martyr, i don't want to be an arse,

Sustain an abstain mean the same, unless you are an english philosepher or teacher, just a slight bit of meaning is different, out here it is.

Blue jeans aren't evil because the Lord says to cover ourselves, just like adam and eve, you offend someone by showing you clevege, but crack, belly button, or tight clothes. If someone gets offended by my baggy jeans, leather boots, buttoned all the way up shirt, belt, and hat, then there is something wrong. Ya, you can wearother outfits, but what about work, on the farm/ranch, jeans are the ONLY thing that hold up, and don't insulate heat.

Why are you questioning blue jeans, then saying you go into bars, which are normally associated with hookers, and drunks, unless you specify, christian bar, but then again, you had to witness to the bartender, right?

Stryper's songs you can unnerstand the words to. I can't unnerstand demon hunter, and i want to sing praises with style. I don't care what you say bout stryper. If you can understand DH, thats good, but others can't, like me lol.

Skeeter, My opinions are not wrong, or based on flawed logic, unless you call the Bible flawed logic. i dont have a tv, though i have a laptop.

Just the last page of this forum, rick was telling me that we don't know what God delights in, so how can we say that he delights in alcohol? Yes, Jesus turned water into wine, but wine and alcohol are 2 different things, though, associated with each other.

[thesteve]

"butt rock" is a blanket term used to describe the heavy metal bands of the late 1970s and 1980s. Stryper is a perfect example of a Christian butt rock band. Basically if you're playing 80s metal and wearing spandex, you're playing butt rock.

I think the concern is that if you're saying that something has the appearance of evil, and we should avoid the appearance of evil, then you're saying that we should avoid those specific things. The problem is that it's easy to get caught up in the superficialities of culture and nitpick those things rather than dig deeper and deal with the underlying mentalities that promote evil thinking.

[guitarplayer917]

you would not catch me dead in spandex. i jes' listen to it.
No nitpicking, Bible picking. If my dads got a problem with sumthing, he searches the Bible til he finds it. I am saying we should, as christian, avoid appearance of evil, but that does not mean "shake the dust off your boots" type of thing, it means what do secular people see, a christian band, or a typical heavy metal band? we should want to show them what weve got, make them wish that they were not, on the outide looking "bored" we should dig deeper, like God says, he looks on the heart while man looks on the outward aapearance, secularly, eventually, people will find out what IS on the inside, of anything. And did God say it was going to be easy. easy is the road to destruction, a verse says the wide and easy leads to deatruction. Like i said, i love to read the Bible and i know its in there, but i don't memorize verses, just read.

I play guitar, but i don't play in front of other people, yet. i write my own music and sing, straight to God. sometimes for our church, What you do is between you and God. Petra centered everything around God. that's what i wanna do. not saying other's don't, but Petra,heck, the Older ladies in our church discuss them!

[conceived in fire]

I know what I'm saying contributes nothing to this conversation, but quite frankly I'm getting a bit tired of these conversations about rock/metal/insert band being "evil". The same thing happened on the Demon Hunter forums so much that people started saying "Demon Hunter is Wicca!" as a joke.

I think we should just have a sticky in either Christian/Secular Music or Theology for this, and link to it in other forums.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by guitarplayer917

it means what do secular people see, a christian band, or a typical heavy metal band?

If it's between the individual and God, why does it matter what the outside world sees on the stage?

[Demon_Hunter]

Unfortuneately, the one who needs to check his mythology is not Jeffery.

The things you credit to "real" cowboys are just as big a part of a mythos as the gunslingers of the wild west are. Played up for people in our modern time to admire and look up to.


Also, drug use, partying, and sex with women is not just common to metal bands. Bands across every musical style have their vices attached to them. Why are you so quick to say that this is an attribute of metal?

[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by thesteve

If it's between the individual and God, why does it matter what the outside world sees on the stage?

Pwned.

[guitarplayer917]

I aint looking for the outside world, and i did not say that DH is evil, i said that the appearance they are associated is, and its also what you define as evil,. i said metal bands cause thats what were descussing
Nbody will really know what a true cowboy is because us real ones are being pushed off by country singers, who womanize, drug use, and all that. And the PBR folks, they aint true, they are a bunch o' "hypocrites" you might say. And the other dude is right, it IS upto the individual, but we are supposed to fellowship to strengthen, what im trying to do. What you said abotu them is not true, but i aint gonna change your opinion. Come to montana sometime, i live with those "real" cowboys. I am one
And how can you tell me and not jeffrey, that i need to check mythology, if my "version" is as bad as his, gun slingos and evil doers, don't ya think he needs to to. Even though i have a living man who has lived as a witness, but just conveniently leave out that detail......(sarcasm)

Demon Hunter as wicca? ha . i don't say that. their message is good though, but like i said, appearance.

[thesteve]

I don't think anyone doubts the fact that there are some true, honest, cowboys out there. In fact it may be the majority of them in the last 100 years. What is being put forward is the idea that historically cowboys were just as known for being wild and unlawful as they were for being honest and hard-working.

[guitarplayer917]

Relatives in delaware think we are in danger of being scalped or shot, bt that is beside the point, would some one share opinions of DH or music with me? its why i came here and now its turning into a he is wrong and we are right thing and we'll prove him wrong even if he's not . Almost every one of my posts has had tried to say something biblical in it so i can learn diff. opinions, and learn more about music and christianity. If you wanna debate on cowboys, what is evil and whats not, and blah blah blah, and how rick cant spell the word "unfortunately", then PM me in private, not public pages. This was supposed to be a christian website where i could fellowship with other believers. If i can't get that here, then i dunno what.

And i aint so quick to put out vices on anything, just this is a metal band forum

[Skeeter]

Guess what: the people posting in this thread are other believers. Fellowshipping with other believers does not meaning hanging out with people who agree with you. We are not disagreeing with you for the sake of making ourselves feel better. I'm honestly concerned that you have a flawed perception of scripture; this is important.

Frankly, there are all sorts of things that have the "appearance of evil" in some people's minds. Electric guitar is an obvious example of such things; some Christians honestly think that they are evil. Does that mean that I should stop playing guitar and give up what I believe is God's calling in my life to be a musician?

[conceived in fire]

Originally Posted by Rick Astley

Also, drug use, partying, and sex with women is not just common to metal bands. Bands across every musical style have their vices attached to them. Why are you so quick to say that this is an attribute of metal?

He brings up a good point. The genre name "rock 'n roll" grew from a jazz slang term for sex. I also think everyone notices how much sexuality has permeated modern pop music as well.

This was supposed to be a christian website where i could fellowship with other believers. If i can't get that here, then i dunno what.

I could certainly be misinterpreting you, but it seems like you're slyly insulting/putting down this site. "Since I can't get fellowship here, I'll just go somewhere else."