[Nomes]

Hi guys and girls,

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post, but it doesn't quite fit in theology... (Mods, do with this post as you will)

My question: What gives a person intrinsic value, if any?

Why am I valuable? Why are you valuable? Are we valuable at all?
Why? Why not?

Thanks

[Nomes]

I should clarify, that I'm not necessarily looking for theological/biblical justification, though if it comes that way, then it comes that way!

[AlphaSigma]

Originally Posted by Nomes

I should clarify, that I'm not necessarily looking for theological/biblical justification, though if it comes that way, then it comes that way!

That is a hard question to answer, philosophically. You might have a better response by asking it theologically in the Theology forum, but there may be a few that would chime in here, if you give it some time.

I personally don't know how to answer that philosophically.

[Nate]

I'd say the best starting place for argument would be simply that you're asking the question at all. If we had no value, we would likely never have come to think we did or even to question whether we did. To me, this is similar to the age-old question of meaning--if everything is meaningless, how would we have ever figured that out?

The next step, to me, is to notice that almost everyone acts in almost every circumstance as if people were intrinsically valuable, at least to some extent. Even the most distraught sociopaths seem to hold some kind of personal worth for themselves, even if they deny the worth of everyone else around them in the process.

Only the most insane among us deny any kind of human value whatsoever. Why would we call these people "insane" if humanity really didn't have any value? Why would human beings of almost all cultures and all world-ages act as if they had value if they didn't? How would this have come about? How unless it were true?

I think the main problem in this line of arguing is that it seems to speak of extrinsic rather than intrinsic value. It could easily be argued, for example, that we value domestic animals just because they're useful or make us happy, and that we value people for similar reasons. This would certainly seem to be created or extrinsic value.

However, we are talking about humanity's judgment of humanity here, not humanity's judgment of something outside itself. If we think that we are valuable, how can that judgment be indicative of extrinsic value? The value judgment is coming from within ourselves, literally. How much more intrinsic can you get than that?

Another way to tackle the question is to consider what the world would be like if human beings didn't have any intrinsic value at all. If you, and even I myself, are only valuable inasmuch as you help me, then what can we make of history's innumerable martyrs who are praised for the depths of their humanity?

In short, I don't think the history of the human race is intelligible unless we grant that humanity has intrinsic value.

[Victus Mortuum]

Originally Posted by Nomes

Hi guys and girls,

Hello.

My question: What gives a person intrinsic value, if any?

What is intrinsic value? Price? Value in Marxist terms means the amount of labor embodied in something. Value? Worth as in use-value or utility? What exactly do you mean?

Why am I valuable? Why are you valuable? Are we valuable at all?
Why? Why not?

Thanks

Your welcome, though I haven't helped you much yet. What do you mean by value?

[Nomes]

Well to be honest, the reason I'm asking these questions is that I feel worthless.
Tackling these questions with scripture sends me around in circles and end in me saying "...but why?" "...but ultimately, I'm not of any value"

I suck because I Sin, because of my sinful nature, just my being alive means I'm sinful. Christ died to atone for this, however I still sin. I know that's now how grace works, but I'm having more of a brain problem getting my head around it, rather than not knowing what the bible says. Trying to sum it up by saing "that's why Grace is so amazing!" That doesn't seem enough for me to value myself. I'm still rotten and horrid to the core.

I hope this is making sense.

I seek validation by my actions "wow, great painting" "Great job organising this or that" "thanks for doing this or that for me.." I look for value because of my actions, not because of who or what I am. What is the "right" or "most balanced" way to go about this...?

[AlphaSigma]

First of all I want to say that you do not suck at all.
You had enough 'intrinsic' value for God himself to die for you. Regardless of where you are at, even before you existed Jesus died your death because he values you immensely, more than anyone ever could.

Nothing we could do could give us more value than God has given us since creation. That's never changed no matter who you are today or who you are tomorrow anything that tells you differently is a lie and is not truth.

The truth is you are loved are valued by the creator, sustainer, and savior of all things. He certainly doesn't think your rotten to the core, less he wouldn't have died. You said you believed that, right? The greatest challenge is learning to separate the way we measure our value.

Am I valued because I'm a summer Youth Pastor and a Bible major and play guitar? No, my value is only in God and I constantly fight that battle of seeing my worth outside my actions and that's rooted in God, intrinsically and only intrinsically.

[Nomes]

Originally Posted by Blade84135

First of all I want to say that you do not suck at all.
You had enough 'intrinsic' value for God himself to die for you. Regardless of where you are at, even before you existed Jesus died your death because he values you immensely, more than anyone ever could.

Nothing we could do could give us more value than God has given us since creation. That's never changed no matter who you are today or who you are tomorrow anything that tells you differently is a lie and is not truth.

The truth is you are loved are valued by the creator, sustainer, and savior of all things. He certainly doesn't think your rotten to the core, less he wouldn't have died. You said you believed that, right? The greatest challenge is learning to separate the way we measure our value.

Am I valued because I'm a summer Youth Pastor and a Bible major and play guitar? No, my value is only in God and I constantly fight that battle of seeing my worth outside my actions and that's rooted in God, intrinsically and only intrinsically.

Yes, I get that in my head.

But - God loves me because of himself not because of me. I've done nothing to warrant his favour and yet I continue to fall short. My brain concludes then, that I am worthless.

[PartTimeLurker]

Hey hey!

I'm gonna weigh in too, but first, let's define our terms (according to dictionary.com, as always!):

Intrinsic:

- Belonging to a thing by its very nature: the intrinsic value of a gold ring.
- Of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent

Extrinsic:

- Not essential or inherent; not a basic part or quality; extraneous: facts that are extrinsic to the matter under discussion.
- Being outside a thing; outward or external; operating or coming from without: extrinsic influences.

Now, straight away I find myself disagreeing with the dictionary. A gold ring - is it's worth really "intrinsic" at all? There are many cultures in the world who have never seen gold before and couldn't care less about having it, or who have a bunch of it and, considering it's relative softness compared to iron or something, don't see any use for it at all.

No, I would say that gold has "extrinsic" worth placed on it by people, rather than some kind of inherent property called "worth".

I might even go so far as to say that nothing is intrinsic at all, really. Nothing can really be taken as an individual thing, without taking it's connections to the rest of the world into consideration. Money has worth because we live in a social system that propagates it's use in buying and selling. Physical beauty has worth because of how it stimulates certain hormones in the opposite sex (cynical, yes, but pretty realistic too), and feeling attractive feels nice. A song has worth not just because of the work put into it and the skill of the musician, but because it evokes feelings and sensations in listeners that make you feel valued.

And a person has a measure of worth in the eyes of another person, depending on a bunch of different factors:

- depth of emotional connection between the two
- shared interests and similarity
- the beholden's perceived integrity and morality
- the kindness and goodwill of the beholder, etc.

(and if I was feeling particularly cynical, I'd list money and physical beauty in there, too)

Society - and the whole world - is made up of a web of interconnections, and something is only defined by it's relationships to other somethings. You need to see how something fits into the whole to see it's worth. It's extrinsic to each element, because it comes from another element outside of it, but I think that makes it kind of cool.

Now, none of this is to say that people don't have a sense of "self worth" in themselves. Of course we all do, but it's undeniable that it's influenced by the worth that we perceive others placing on us. The Oprah-style "love yourself" idea of amassing self-worth independent of your place in the world strikes me as wrong-headed and kind of silly (as Oprah generally does, but that's a whole other thread, literally) I suppose that you could place a "kind of intrinsic" value on yourself, by looking at your attributes and saying to yourself (not literally and verbally, cos that's a little weird) "to an objective observer, I would be classed as 'valuable'", but it's still a worth that you are tagging on yourself, though it doesn't make it bad.

But what if other people don't value you much, or you don't feel like they do, at any rate? I don't have any really good answers, beyond "find some people that do". But that's not really your problem though, huh - I know for sure that there's a bunch of people who love you, respect you and value you very much (me being one of them...)!

This rant is getting really long now, but no matter where I'm at, I'll take it to the God-place for you:

If you believe that God is real and God loves you and God died for you, the question of whether your worth is "intrinsic" or "extrinsic" is really moot. If your sense of worth is influenced by feeling valued and loved (as it can't not be), then hey - guess what - you're loved by the Creator of the Universe, and he *DIED* to bring you into his family forever! That worth *is* extrinsic, but that doesn't make it any less real.

Sorry for the ridiculously long rant, but you did ask for it, you know.

-- Nate

[Jacob Richter]

Originally Posted by Victus Mortuum

Hello.



What is intrinsic value? Price? Value in Marxist terms means the amount of labor embodied in something. Value? Worth as in use-value or utility? What exactly do you mean?



Your welcome, though I haven't helped you much yet. What do you mean by value?

As you've noticed, they're a more philosophical bunch.

AOL: "You've got mail!"

[Victus Mortuum]

Originally Posted by Nomes

Well to be honest, the reason I'm asking these questions is that I feel worthless.

Aw. So this is more of a question of self-worth/esteem than of 'value' in the more classic sense of the term? Well, I'm going to go under that assumption in this post (if I'm wrong let me know). I am not going to try to help you/fix you. Depending on the depth/intensity of the issue (I don't know you, so I cannot make any assumptions) you may want to see a good specialist (though there aren't many out there that are good). All I will do is point out some things in what you said that you might want to look at. (btw, I really think that John Locke's book An Essay Concerning Human Understanding and Some Thoughts Concering Education could be useful for anyone who is trying to figure themselves out. Seriously.)

Tackling these questions with scripture sends me around in circles and end in me saying "...but why?" "...but ultimately, I'm not of any value"

Frankly, I don't think that your 'Holy Scriptures' are going to help you out at all here. I think that (again, depending on the depth of the issue) it may be an improper psychological association...?

I suck because I Sin, because of my sinful nature, just my being alive means I'm sinful. Christ died to atone for this, however I still sin. I know that's now how grace works, but I'm having more of a brain problem getting my head around it, rather than not knowing what the bible says. Trying to sum it up by saing "that's why Grace is so amazing!" That doesn't seem enough for me to value myself. I'm still rotten and horrid to the core.

You might find this post of mine interesting. I think it may help you see why your beliefs may actually be contributing to this problem, not aiding you in it.

I hope this is making sense.

It is making a lot of sense, actually.

I seek validation by my actions "wow, great painting" "Great job organising this or that" "thanks for doing this or that for me.." I look for value because of my actions, not because of who or what I am. What is the "right" or "most balanced" way to go about this...?

I am not sure exactly what your asking/saying here, so I'll leave it alone until you can perhaps explain yourself more?

[Nate]

Originally Posted by Victus Mortuum

You might find this post of mine interesting. I think it may help you see why your beliefs may actually be contributing to this problem, not aiding you in it.

Your view of religion is disturbing.

The fact of the matter is that Christianity does not have as hopeless a view of humanity as you seem to think and Nomes seems to feel. It is true that the doctrines of original sin exist strongly in most modern Christian traditions. It is also true that Christians view sinfulness and badness as the central element of the human experience, at least so far as the relation to God is concerned. It is not true, however, that that is the end of the story.

Grace isn't about God covering up or ignoring your continuing sins, Naomi. Grace is about God changing your very nature. You are no longer rotten and horrid to the core. That is why grace is so amazing. The song doesn't go "I've always been lost, blind, and a wretch like me" but "I once was lost, but now I'm found!" Jars Of Clay frames the issue by saying that "the trouble is we don't know who we are instead."

Paul says of all the horrible rotten dirty things that characterize reprobate man that "such were some of you," not "such are." The fact of the matter is that we no longer are those things. He explicates it further in Ephesians 2 (probably the single best explanation in Scripture of the true processes of grace; make sure to read the whole chapter) and Peter echoes it in saying "but you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."

Christ died to prove you were not worthless, not because you were worthless.

[PartTimeLurker]

Hey Nate, if you don't mind me replying to your post as well, I'd like to respond too...

See, I understand what you mean and - probably just like Nomes - it does make sense and I can even pull bits of Scripture that agree with you, but the problem is that I don't know whether that really lines up with reality. Or with my experience of it, at the very least.

You say that grace is about more than simply "covering up" our sins. Well great, I'd like a little help with stopping all the sins I keep on doing too then, but help isn't really forthcoming. Unless it really is like Osteen says, and the problem is that I'm not "letting" him...?

And what do you do with someone who says "but I don't feel as if my very nature has been changed"? W

Backt to the question of worth -- the way your conception of Christianity casts it seems pretty similar to Victus Mortuum's - I'm worthwhile to God, but not because of anything I do or don't do, because by myself I'm all crap, and it's only because of God's infinite goodness being imputed to me that I can start to clean up. It's all extrinsic, from God.

Not making any judgement calls on that right now, just pointing out that they look pretty similar from here...

Nice talking to you. Supurb name you have there, too

-- Nathan

[Nate]

Originally Posted by PartTimeLurker

Backt to the question of worth -- the way your conception of Christianity casts it seems pretty similar to Victus Mortuum's - I'm worthwhile to God, but not because of anything I do or don't do, because by myself I'm all crap, and it's only because of God's infinite goodness being imputed to me that I can start to clean up. It's all extrinsic, from God.

I wanted to address the issue of feeling worthless in general more than this question of extrinsic vs intrinsic value.

I don't feel, however, that "rotten to the core" in the doctrine of original sin means "worthless to the core." I think sinful human beings are still very intrinsically valuable despite their depravity. "Valuable" doesn't equal "good." God didn't die for us in spite of our worthlessness, but in spite of our unrighteousness. To echo my previous post, Christ died to prove that we were not worthless, not because we were worthless. Certainly if you had children (I don't know if anyone here does) you wouldn't call them "worthless" (except perhaps in a fit of anger) whenever they did something wrong. That's just insane, on par with the sociopaths I mentioned earlier. Despite all of our sinning and all of our depravity, we are still inherently valuable.

[Nomes]

Originally Posted by Nate

I wanted to address the issue of feeling worthless in general more than this question of extrinsic vs intrinsic value.

I don't feel, however, that "rotten to the core" in the doctrine of original sin means "worthless to the core." I think sinful human beings are still very intrinsically valuable despite their depravity. "Valuable" doesn't equal "good." God didn't die for us in spite of our worthlessness, but in spite of our unrighteousness. To echo my previous post, Christ died to prove that we were not worthless, not because we were worthless. Certainly if you had children (I don't know if anyone here does) you wouldn't call them "worthless" (except perhaps in a fit of anger) whenever they did something wrong. That's just insane, on par with the sociopaths I mentioned earlier. Despite all of our sinning and all of our depravity, we are still inherently valuable.

That's a really important distinction Nate ~ rotten to the core =/= worthless to the core
And a connection I've never really made before.


---------------------------------



I was also thinking last night that this may also come from the feeling that my amazment, wonder, awe, gratitude for the cross is not humanly sustainable. If I can't keep up the gratitude for the cross to a level where I feel I should, I think I conclude then that surely the work of the cross is not sustainable either. Which I know, is poor logic and not scriptural at all... but just something I was thinking about.