[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

If as a guy, you are secure in your masculinity, I do not see how it is emasculating. If I was always in all things the pursuer in my marriage, as the stereotype goes, I would really have to question whether my wife was really interested in me. In dating, I do not see how it is a bad thing for girls to ask guys out.

This makes more sense than anything else I've read here. If this girl intended on dating a guy who would be expected to initiate and control everything, it would be a pretty badly one-sided relationship.

And I completely agree that all the talk of it upsetting how men and women are "wired" is ridiculous. She's asking him for a date, not the key to the dictatorial throne of his universe. If a guy's obsessing over gender stereotypes and ignoring the fact that a girl he really likes just asked him out, he has bigger problems.

[S.B.Nichols]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

strangely, most women like having some control too.

Every married man know's who's in control.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

What you describe as being distinctive of men, is actually distinctive of all people.

I'll refer to my previous post about top 5 lists. Women may like to be in control, but psychologically, they have a built in need to be taken care of. You find it in all cultures and societies, even matriarchal ones (and I learned that fact in a secular anthropology class), so it obviously not something that learned.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Dropping hints is juvenile and usually does not work.

It's used all the time, on both sides of the argument, and I'm willing to bet that you've used it yourself, be it with your significant other, parents, etc. I like how one of the above posters put it, it isn't manipulation, it is a form of communication. You're not lying to anyone, you're not using malice.

Case in point, three days ago I mentioned to my wife that I really liked her potato casserole that she hasn't made in a while. Last night, she made me potato casserole. A month before xmas, my wife was dropping hints about wanting a nice xm radio she can use in her office, so I bought her an xm radio for xmas. It actually keeps the power with the person you're dropping hints to.

I guess you don't have to like it, just accept that it is the way it is.

----------------------------
Now look, I'm not saying you need to base a relationship on dropping hints, thats taking it to far. But the original idea of this thread was would it be ok to ask a guy out, because chicka is a gal, and it would be non traditional. (her words, not mine). Is it OK? Yes. Ask the boy out, probably make his day. But, will that make him uncomfortable? Maybe, likely around his friends who will likely tease him for being asked out by a girl. But, let's be totally honest with each other here guys, that doesn't make him weak or insecure, it makes him normal.

And that is the way it is.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by S.B.Nichols

Every married man know's who's in control.

In my marriage, its pretty much both of us to be honest.

I'll refer to my previous post about top 5 lists. Women may like to be in control, but psychologically, they have a built in need to be taken care of. You find it in all cultures and societies, even matriarchal ones (and I learned that fact in a secular anthropology class), so it obviously not something that learned.

I learned quite the opposite in my psych classes, and observed quite the opposite in some tribal societies. The women in PNG, do most all of the taking care of and it is an accepted societal norm, and there are some happy women there. (I have to say some because there are a lot of other cultural norms, some of which are just rank.)

It's used all the time, on both sides of the argument, and I'm willing to bet that you've used it yourself, be it with your significant other, parents, etc. I like how one of the above posters put it, it isn't manipulation, it is a form of communication. You're not lying to anyone, you're not using malice.

I used to have almost solely female friends in my early college years. I have heard the conversations on dropping hints to guys and 99.999999% were things that nobody would pick up on. People are clueless and tend to miss subtleties in my opinion. If you are going to successfully hint around, you have to be bold, brazen and good at it. In what i have seen, most guys are clueless to hints and even when they are painfully obvious. A lot of guys are both unobservant and will dismiss what they do see, trying to not get their hopes up. Mostly I see it in a very juvenile way.

Case in point, three days ago I mentioned to my wife that I really liked her potato casserole that she hasn't made in a while. Last night, she made me potato casserole. A month before xmas, my wife was dropping hints about wanting a nice xm radio she can use in her office, so I bought her an xm radio for xmas. It actually keeps the power with the person you're dropping hints to.

You can't quite compare potato casserole to dating here. There are a near infinite string of reasons your wife would read your verbal and nonverbal communication better than a couple not yet dating. Even then, those are brazen hints, very unlike what most people dating use.

I guess you don't have to like it, just accept that it is the way it is.

Its more that I see it as prime breeding ground for miscommunication, hurt and disappointment.

Now look, I'm not saying you need to base a relationship on dropping hints, thats taking it to far. But the original idea of this thread was would it be ok to ask a guy out, because chicka is a gal, and it would be non traditional. (her words, not mine). Is it OK? Yes. Ask the boy out, probably make his day. But, will that make him uncomfortable? Maybe, likely around his friends who will likely tease him for being asked out by a girl. But, let's be totally honest with each other here guys, that doesn't make him weak or insecure, it makes him normal.

And that is the way it is.

I got asked out twice by girls in front of my friends. Lets just say the response was envy, and I got called a player rather than anything else. If someone is going to make fun of you, they will regardless of what happens to you.

[S.B.Nichols]

Brother, of course, if she's dropping obscure hints("yeah, my great grandfather used to take my great grandmother out to this place on a hill in old china town"), yeah, a guy might have a hard time picking up on it, but if he's into her, and she says, "you know, I really like that restaurant and wish someone would take me there", he's going to pick up on it, and if he's really into her at all, he'll take the carrot. It's not manipulation, it's not teasing, it really is just communication..flirting if you like. Give the guy the chance. If nothing else, ask him to ask you out ("you know, if you asked me out, I'd say yes").

Trust me on this. I've worked with youth, single men, married men, and can tell you that, ]while this particular example of just two people not yet dating is a bit of a stretch, as a general rule in relationships it is always better to let the guy be the leader. Studies have affirmed it time and time again, (heck, even the liberal Dr. Phil agrees with that). It's not just a good idea, since the bible says that men should be leaders in their marriage, its gotta be a good idea to let the man be the leader in a dating relationship. I'm not being sexist, a woman is perfectly capable of taking the lead and being successful, I'm just saying it's not ideal.

And if you knew anything about my wife's potato casserole, you'd agree that it compares to just about every aspect of life and love. (it was just an example fresh on my mind, if you'd like a better one, the girl I eventually married would drop hints to me at bible study about how she likes to walk around the park in the evenings, but that it's much more fun when she has someone to talk to...I took that carrot, it's been about 10 years now. No one has been hurt, no one was lied to, no one was disappointed. She gave me the opportunity to be the man and ask her out, heck with the understanding that she would say yes. What can be better than that?)

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Its more that I see it as prime breeding ground for miscommunication, hurt and disappointment.

And yet, despite your observations, that world is fine with it's defined gender roles, hardwired or not. It's not about low self esteem, or insecurities, its about guys being guys, and girls being girls. Deny it all you want, it won't change.

Why does the bible command men to love their wives? Why does it command women to respect their husbands? Why not command both to do both?



Ok, so what happened here? did the boy agree to go out with her or not?

[CDBongo]

Honestly, I'm personally surprised that this is even an issue. Everyone's different maybe I'm just of the "does it really matter?" type.

A response to one comment here: If I was asked out in front of my friends, they would envy me, alot.

In my opinion a true man cares more about the relationship and the girl than he does about "who asked who out" and superiority and "who's in control" shouldn't be a really big issue. I remember back when I was little, I would have friends who I would strugle over the superiority with. Now that I'm older the thought of that seems retarded and I have a good amount of respect for most of my friends and I hope that it's mutual. I pray to God that it works out this way when I start dating.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by S.B.Nichols

And yet, despite your observations, that world is fine with it's defined gender roles, hardwired or not. It's not about low self esteem, or insecurities, its about guys being guys, and girls being girls. Deny it all you want, it won't change.

Attitudes like this are precisely the reason many people -- myself included -- are not entirely fine with defined gender roles. Assert your opinion all you want, but stop making assumptions about what the rest of the world is "fine with."

[S.B.Nichols]

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

Attitudes like this are precisely the reason many people -- myself included -- are not entirely fine with defined gender roles. Assert your opinion all you want, but stop making assumptions about what the rest of the world is "fine with."

well, ok bubba. You make your assumptions, I'll make mine. Sure, mine are founded on not only the bible, and 8 thousand years of human history and culture, but whatever...

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by S.B.Nichols

Why does the bible command men to love their wives? Why does it command women to respect their husbands? Why not command both to do both?

Actually, scripture does. In numerous places.

You keep claiming universals, and frankly, thats an unsubstantiated claim and one that sounds HIGHLY suspect as to accuracy.

Does the Bible say women should not ask guys out? No. Is pretending your point of view is Biblical when both sides are extra-biblical and culturally based a good idea? NO!

My point is that you are broad brushing everyone into universals. As a guy, I do not fit your universals at all actually.

However, your remark about your opinion being the only biblical or inteligent one was flat out rude, and uncalled for. "well, ok bubba. You make your assumptions, I'll make mine. Sure, mine are founded on not only the bible, and 8 thousand years of human history and culture, but whatever..."

Quite frankly, you have made some culturally dubious claims (secondarily there are not 8000 years of written historical record of familial life) You are claiming a cultural uniformity that I patently know is false. It did not apply to where I went in PNG, and it does not fit the American Modern family either for that matter.

Guys being guys and girls being girls is drastically different. In the sepik of PNG, the roles are near identically reversed to what you claim. Guys are dandies and the girls do the picking.

[S.B.Nichols]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

However, your remark about your opinion being the only biblical or inteligent one was flat out rude, and uncalled for. "well, ok bubba. You make your assumptions, I'll make mine. Sure, mine are founded on not only the bible, and 8 thousand years of human history and culture, but whatever..."

Bill? Really? I thought the post was just cheeky enough to be rude and facetious without having to point out the fact. I even added the clever smilie. It was responding to a rude post. But, thanks for pointing it out in case someone didn't get it. Yeah, that statement was probably a little rude too, but so was your whole message, and about half of your earlier ones, and a few from other posters.

Everyone here can hate my opinion, it isn't going to change, and the only thing I hear in defense is "Well, thats not how they do it in Oceania, and hey, I was asked out by two girls once, my friends thought I was a playe, or hey I'm manly enough to get asked out." But hey, my comments are suspect, so those must be pretty valid for proving your point.

This whole thing was started when I suggested that chicka drop hints to the guy. It was called childish, manipulative, and harmful, and yet no one has been able to give me an example using the suggestions I laid out where it was any of those things. On the other hand, I could cite a dozen or so examples, real life examples from people I know through past or present congregations, including one or two that started in the very same position as chicka's, where the girl took charge of something, sometimes something insanely minimal to the big picture, and the whole thing ended in counseling, breakup, or divorce. (PLEASE DON'T READ INTO THAT TOO MUCH, I'M NOT BLAMING ALL RELATIONSHIP ISSUES ON WOMEN, MEN HAVE FAULTS TOO IN EVERY EXAMPLE I CAN THINK OF, I WON'T BE BLASTED FOR THAT EITHER) ...well, honestly, I could give you examples, but I won't because they are personal, private, and none of your business. Am I saying that it always ends badly? Nope, never crossed my lips...err...keyboard. My whole point is that there is a reason why the bible, for example Eph 5:33 among many others, is written the way it is. And one can only assume it isn't cultural, unless the entire book of Ephesians is cultural and doesn't apply to anyone anymore.

As for the 8000 yr remark, ok, you win. 6000. So sorry. Feel better?

And after all of that, I have said, what...three times now, that she should just go ahead and ask him out. I can't win for loosing.

I won't argue this point any more in here. It falls on deaf and sometimes angry ears. I'm sorry, my brothers and sisters, for getting upset myself. The bear doesn't like to be poked.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by S.B.Nichols

Bill? Really? I thought the post was just cheeky enough to be rude and facetious without having to point out the fact. I even added the clever smilie. It was responding to a rude post. But, thanks for pointing it out in case someone didn't get it. Yeah, that statement was probably a little rude too, but so was your whole message, and about half of your earlier ones, and a few from other posters.

No, messages that disagree with you and ask you not to make unfair generalizations are not rude. That's all I did, and that's all Bill's message was. And no one's attacking you for sharing your opinion, merely for implying that all intelligent, Bible-reading Christian share your point of view. I'm sorry, but that is a rude and condescending way to talk.

This whole thing was started when I suggested that chicka drop hints to the guy. It was called childish, manipulative, and harmful, and yet no one has been able to give me an example using the suggestions I laid out where it was any of those things. On the other hand, I could cite a dozen or so examples, real life examples from people I know through past or present congregations, including one or two that started in the very same position as chicka's, where the girl took charge of something, sometimes something insanely minimal to the big picture, and the whole thing ended in counseling, breakup, or divorce. (PLEASE DON'T READ INTO THAT TOO MUCH, I'M NOT BLAMING ALL RELATIONSHIP ISSUES ON WOMEN, MEN HAVE FAULTS TOO IN EVERY EXAMPLE I CAN THINK OF, I WON'T BE BLASTED FOR THAT EITHER)

So you're pinning breakups and divorces between sensible and loving couples on the sole fact that the girl took charge of something? I have a hard time believing there weren't other factors involved.

Honestly, if a couple is willing to let a relationship go down the drain simply because one of them defied a tiny cultural gender stereotype, it says a lot more to me about the couple than the power of gender roles. A man and a woman who claim to love each other have much bigger issues if they allow something that trivial to come between them.

There's a reason husband and wife repeat the exact same vows when they're married. Does the man vow to take charge of all things concerning his wife, or does the woman vow to relinquish all control and initiative to her husband? No -- both make the same promise to love and cherish each other, mutually and equally. Isn't that more important than insisting that outspoken women are better off learning to drop hints so they can better fill their roles?

[S.B.Nichols]

Your statements were rude. Not rude because you disagreed with me, but rude because of the way you stated your opinion. Bills message was rude. Not because he disagreed with me, but because of the way he stated his opinion. My message was rude, not because I disagreed with you (all), but because of the way I stated my opinion. Wise up. Honestly, usually you only get these kind of warm fuzzy feelings from the HC forums. The difference I guess, was that I was being rude completely on purpose, and I apologized for it later.

As for the entire next part of your previous statement, go back and re read what I wrote. Specifically what I put in caps (and in bold so no one would miss it). Don't pin something on me that I did not say, specifically something I went out of my way not to say. Like I said, I won't bother to defend my point anymore here, and if you really want to start an argument on whether or not you were rude, you'll probably need to start a seperate thread in the appropriate forum.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

Honestly, if a couple is willing to let a relationship go down the drain simply because one of them defied a tiny cultural gender stereotype, it says a lot more to me about the couple than the power of gender roles. A man and a woman who claim to love each other have much bigger issues if they allow something that trivial to come between them.

I will respond to this. You would be shocked and surprised what things some people, people who love each other and have had very successful lives and relationships, will let come between them. You have no idea. TV couldn't write that kind of drama.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by S.B.Nichols

Bill? Really? I thought the post was just cheeky enough to be rude and facetious without having to point out the fact. I even added the clever smilie. It was responding to a rude post. But, thanks for pointing it out in case someone didn't get it. Yeah, that statement was probably a little rude too, but so was your whole message, and about half of your earlier ones, and a few from other posters.

Actually, stepping in as mod here for a moment, your post was the first rude one.

My message was not rude.

My point was, you were claiming your opinion was biblical and the only valid one in human civilization. Unfortunately, you have stepped far past scripture into cultural norms that are not biblical. But seriously, do not be rude to users.

And scripture does not say guys have to be in charge of everything. Such is a direct contradiction of scripture.

Being rude is unacceptable on cgr. Unfortunately you made a lot of grandiose claims with no backing. If they were true... my experience would have been different.