[FreakShiny]

You know, I am a fan of Apple and their products. I love their OS and think that their computers are top-notch. I think the iPod was one of their greatest product lines released to the public.

Having watched them over the past two years, however, I feel like Apple is losing touch with the average consumer--sort of like they did in the 90s (which almost bankrupted them). I think because they surged in popularity over the past few years, Steve Jobs has gotten too much of an ego boost and is more concerned with his own ideas and philosophies than he is with producing a product that the consumer wants.

Case-in-point--the whole iPhone fiasco. Do I really need to point out everything they have done wrong here? The product was very highly priced initially and consumers could only use it on the AT&T network. Still, people were excited about the product and showed up in droves to purchase them. Then, two months later, Jobs drops the price for one by $200. We all know technology gets cheaper over time and that first-adopters always pay a premium but for the huge price drop to happen after only two months is just giving those who were loyal to Apple the shaft.

Then they decide to basically break all of the iPhones out there which were unlocked and were either being used on other networks or were just being used as glorified iPods/web browser/email clients. Obviously those people purchased the product initially and wanted what Apple had to offer but Apple stabbed them in the back. Why? I'll have to find my source again but Apple makes nearly $800 off of each phone. Seriously. AT&T pays them $18/month for each activated phone on their network for the first two years. Add in the profit margin for the phone itself and you're right near $800.

Apple is getting greedy.

Case-in-point #2 -- the new Video iPod Nano. What is Mac OS X built off from? BSD. What is BSD? A Unix derivative. Who are the largest supporters of Unix derivatives? Linux users. Who did Apple lock out from using the Video Nano? LINUX USERS!

I think that if Apple does not get their head on straight soon, they are going to crash and burn just as they did in the late 90s--perhaps even worse.

[tht00]

Originally Posted by FreakShiny

Case-in-point #2 -- the new Video iPod Nano. What is Mac OS X built off from? BSD. What is BSD? A Unix derivative. Who are the largest supporters of Unix derivatives? Linux users. Who did Apple lock out from using the Video Nano? LINUX USERS!

One critique. BSD borrows little (if anything) from Linux, mostly due to licensing issues. The two kernels (and respective OSs) share a lot in common, but are fundamentally different. To try to wrap this back around that Apple steals from Linux users doesn't really work. (Plus, isn't there already a workaround for using the new-gen iPods in Linux? I know, it's stupid that a workaround is even needed.)

Overall, I have lost a lot of respect for Apple. They do make fine products, especially their computers and OSX -- which is a decent alternative to Windows if you don't want to mess with Linux. But really, I keep seeing them lock more and more of their stuff down.

The iPods, for instance -- when you put music on them from iTunes, the music is renamed and placed in random folders. Seriously... why?

Apple also seems unwilling to support open formats at all. No Ogg/Flac support on the iPod or iTunes (Ogg is seriously one of the best lossy audio codecs that exists). One of my friends, today, told me that even Leopard doesn't support the ext3 partition format. Truth is, Apple isn't about to support open formats that compete with their closed stuff.

I know -- I'm not your average consumer... but this is what it comes down to: Apple is just as closed and proprietary as Microsoft is. They're a corporation after $. If you get stepped on in the process... well, welcome to America.

[Andrew]

I have zero respect left for Apple after this whole stupid mess. Quality Control is worse than ever, and they have no respect for me as a consumer. They are far, FAR worse than Microsoft is.

[FreakShiny]

Originally Posted by tht00

One critique. BSD borrows little (if anything) from Linux, mostly due to licensing issues. The two kernels (and respective OSs) share a lot in common, but are fundamentally different. To try to wrap this back around that Apple steals from Linux users doesn't really work. (Plus, isn't there already a workaround for using the new-gen iPods in Linux? I know, it's stupid that a workaround is even needed.)

I am in no way implying that Apple stole from Linux. Simply pointing out the fact that they derived their OS from an open-source Unix derivative (BSD) and that they are the epitome of anti-M$--Linux users generally don't care of M$ as well so why alienate them? I think Apple would be far more successful in embracing Linux users and the open-source community than they would doing what they are doing now.

I understand they want to make money but it's not like supporting open-source causes you to not make money. There are plenty of companies out there who fully support and produce open-source software and make lots of cash (RedHat, Novell, etc.). Open-source doesn't always mean free.

[Art]

I feel like Apple has been out of touch for a while.

[ApparentlyNothing]

Do you honestly think the "average consumer" is into hacking and Linux? Why should Apple care about the minority of the minorities?

Granted, I don't think everything Apple has done recently is perfect, they've made mistakes in the past, make some now, and will continue to make them in the future. But Apple has never been a very "open" company when it comes to hardware and software. I don't see how these things should surprise people, let alone how that means they're "losing touch".

[thesteve]

I voted no...I agree with Art. Apple has been out of touch with the average consumer for a long time. If anything they've only started to make contact with the average user in the last couple years.

[tht00]

Originally Posted by FreakShiny

I am in no way implying that Apple stole from Linux. Simply pointing out the fact that they derived their OS from an open-source Unix derivative (BSD) and that they are the epitome of anti-M$--Linux users generally don't care of M$ as well so why alienate them? I think Apple would be far more successful in embracing Linux users and the open-source community than they would doing what they are doing now.

Gotcha.

Originally Posted by FreakShiny

I understand they want to make money but it's not like supporting open-source causes you to not make money. There are plenty of companies out there who fully support and produce open-source software and make lots of cash (RedHat, Novell, etc.). Open-source doesn't always mean free.

I read an article a while back that I found interesting... here's a snippet:

"It wasn't until later, giving the same presentation at Linux World that I'd missed giving at the Apple show, that I realized that Apple were scared of the SuSE Linux desktop I was using. They didn't want customers to see anything other than Apple-badged everything at their show. Especially if it was something better. They were scared of their customers even seeing a choice."

http://www.tuxdeluxe.org/node/175

Originally Posted by ApparentlyNothing

Do you honestly think the "average consumer" is into hacking and Linux? Why should Apple care about the minority of the minorities?

Like I said, I know I'm not an 'average user'. The average user has no interest in free (open) software, and the more Apple and Microsoft can keep it that way, the better for both of them. It's that attitude from them that I don't like.

Plus, Linux is more widespread than is given credit to. Kind of like those supposed Ron Paul supporters -- if the media can make them out to be a noisy few fanatics, no one pays attention. Same gets done to Linux users in the computing world, and no one takes us seriously.
Some interesting stats: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

Granted, those are from logs from website for building web pages. Webmasters have a tendency to use Linux/Mac more than 'average' users. Even still, Linux ranks in right behind OSX (3.4% vs. 3.8%) and Vista is only a few percentages higher (4.5%).

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by thesteve

I voted no...I agree with Art. Apple has been out of touch with the average consumer for a long time. If anything they've only started to make contact with the average user in the last couple years.

Then you should have voted "Yes".

Anyways, to the OP, it is an exceedingly sad fact that they are losing touch. Like so many other companies, they have what it takes to become amazing but are losing that edge.

[ApparentlyNothing]

Originally Posted by tht00

Like I said, I know I'm not an 'average user'. The average user has no interest in free (open) software, and the more Apple and Microsoft can keep it that way, the better for both of them. It's that attitude from them that I don't like.

Plus, Linux is more widespread than is given credit to. Kind of like those supposed Ron Paul supporters -- if the media can make them out to be a noisy few fanatics, no one pays attention. Same gets done to Linux users in the computing world, and no one takes us seriously.
Some interesting stats: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

Granted, those are from logs from website for building web pages. Webmasters have a tendency to use Linux/Mac more than 'average' users. Even still, Linux ranks in right behind OSX (3.4% vs. 3.8%) and Vista is only a few percentages higher (4.5%).

No one here is arguing that openness is necessarily a bad thing. But the argument is that Apple is losing touch with the average consumers. If you admit to not being an average user, how could you say they're losing touch because they don't cater to you, a minority user?

I think your stated reason for not liking them is valid, but I think saying Apple is losing it's touch with average consumers because they don't provide things only a minority of users want is an absurd argument.

Furthermore, let me use this as an example. There are Windows and Linux users out there that chose not to buy a Mac because of how uncustomizable the hardware is. Apple chooses to make hardware like this for a reason, and those who don't like that freely chose to not buy those products. Or another example are the iPods. They only play certain types of music files. If you prefer using a type of file that isn't supported, you choose to not buy an iPod and instead buy something more open. This has been how it is for years and years. Apple then comes out with a cell phone, and suddenly everyone thinks things are different, that they should be able to do whatever they want with it and Apple should be happy to oblige them. If you wanted a phone that you could install whatever you wanted on it and use on TMobile, you should have bought a TMobile phone that supports that instead of an iPhone.

Yes, I do think that Apple should have opened up to third-party developers for apps from the beginning. But an SDK is coming soon. But to say the phone should work on a different network other than AT&T is ridiculous to expect, because not only is Apple notorious for not being open as I said, but the entire US cell phone industry is as well. Try buying a phone from an American cell phone company and see how open they are to you not using their network.

If you want to say Apple has never had a touch to begin with, ok. I would still argue that AVERAGE consumers aren't that much into heavy customization. But even if I gave you that point, it would be ridiculous to EXPECT anything more from Apple than they've been giving their consumer base for the past 10years+, and then when they don't, say they're "losing touch".

BTW, tht00, this isn't just a response to you. You seem well aware that Apple has always been closed and proprietary. This was mostly just a general response to the thread.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Then you should have voted "Yes".

Had I answered the purpose of the question rather than the question itself you are correct.

[conceived in fire]

I'll admit I don't know enough about all this to make an informed decision.

(and perhaps this post is completely pointless)

[Bryan]

i think apple is becoming more in touch with the average user because more and more people are switching to macs.

[+SEAL+]

Originally Posted by Bryan

i think apple is becoming more in touch with the average user because more and more people are switching to macs.

All 8% of them.

[Wesley7777]

Originally Posted by +SEAL+

All 8% of them.

Then all the people that have the ipod, hmm i am going to guess that is more than 8%. We are talking all products not just computers.