[bradguitarbeast]

Originally Posted by Chris

By this same logic, my closest high school and college friends have part of me forever. The others are right in that this statement is a false rhetoric coming from the Joshua Harris mindset. If God can restore one who has had extramarital sex many times with many people to wholeness and purity, why is it suddenly impossible when one has simply dated rather than courted?

dating is just something that people do for whatever reason but courting is much different.courting is for people who are planing to get married but dating is something that any one can do.I have had the chance to "date" many girls but it would not have meant anything to me or them.simply that I thought she was "hot" and she thought I was "cute".so really there would have only been lust in the relationship and I would have probably done something I would regret.courting however is a much more wait bearing thing. you don't court someone just because they look good like in dating in courting you are trying to get to know who the person is to see if they are who you want to spend the rest of your life with.there is no kissing,touching,or any of the like be cause your parents "should" always be in the next room or in the same room(no being completely alone) in courting,but in dating anything goes as long as both are willing.that is why I choose to court. it's less look based and more about the person.

[bobthecockroach]

You need to be aware that many people use those terms in different ways. It is much better to talk about the underlying issues than debating about "dating" versus "courting" based on your understanding of the terms.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by bradguitarbeast

dating is just something that people do for whatever reason but courting is much different.courting is for people who are planing to get married but dating is something that any one can do.I have had the chance to "date" many girls but it would not have meant anything to me or them.simply that I thought she was "hot" and she thought I was "cute".so really there would have only been lust in the relationship and I would have probably done something I would regret.courting however is a much more wait bearing thing. you don't court someone just because they look good like in dating in courting you are trying to get to know who the person is to see if they are who you want to spend the rest of your life with.there is no kissing,touching,or any of the like be cause your parents "should" always be in the next room or in the same room(no being completely alone) in courting,but in dating anything goes as long as both are willing.that is why I choose to court. it's less look based and more about the person.

I'm in what I would call a dating relationship. My girlfriend is an amazing, wonderful person, and I'm absolutely in love with her. We will have been together for a year next month. And I think your claim that relationships like ours are solely based on looks or "whatever reason" is downright offensive.

Like Bob said, "dating" and "courting" are arbitrary terms that mean a bajillion different things to anyone you ask to define them. And Josh Harris's opinion aside, your relationship is no holier than mine simply because your term comes first in the dictionary.

Plus, we're both in college. Her parents are a plane ride away, and mine don't exactly have the time to drive over and wait in the next room every time we want to see each other.

[SecretAgentRat]

Originally Posted by bradguitarbeast

dating is just something that people do for whatever reason but courting is much different.courting is for people who are planing to get married but dating is something that any one can do.I have had the chance to "date" many girls but it would not have meant anything to me or them.simply that I thought she was "hot" and she thought I was "cute".so really there would have only been lust in the relationship and I would have probably done something I would regret.courting however is a much more wait bearing thing. you don't court someone just because they look good like in dating in courting you are trying to get to know who the person is to see if they are who you want to spend the rest of your life with.there is no kissing,touching,or any of the like be cause your parents "should" always be in the next room or in the same room(no being completely alone) in courting,but in dating anything goes as long as both are willing.that is why I choose to court. it's less look based and more about the person.

And thinking patterns like this are the biggest problem I have with Josh Harris' books (or those similar to his).
I believe that they, even if unintenionally, created extremely legalistic and holier-than-thou attitudes about "courting" and "dating."
The real issue isn't the words or methods used--the real issue is the heart. Is your relationship glorifying to God? It is possible for "courting" relationships to be extremely dishonoring to God while a "dating" relationship (if I use the terms as you have described them) be laid out biblically and pleasing to God.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by bradguitarbeast

in courting you are trying to get to know who the person is to see if they are who you want to spend the rest of your life with.

For many, the aim of "dating" is the same. However, the question I have is how dating supposedly has the following effect contrary to courting:

Originally Posted by bradguitarbeast

when you have dated someone you have created a bond with that person.they will have a part of you forever.a part of you that belongs to your spouse.

And why does your view of dating assume sexual impurity?

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by bradguitarbeast

dating is just something that people do for whatever reason but courting is much different.

Your average, promiscous teen who has never darkened the door of a church general would disagree with this. Dating is viewed even in the most liberal, secular side of things as actually being some form of comitment level in a relationship.

courting is for people who are planing to get married but dating is something that any one can do.

I dated my wife prior to marriage.

I have had the chance to "date" many girls but it would not have meant anything to me or them.simply that I thought she was "hot" and she thought I was "cute".so really there would have only been lust in the relationship and I would have probably done something I would regret.

Right, this would have been dating for lustful reasons. Always wrong to do. However, dating is not the issue here. The sin of lust being the motive is.

courting however is a much more wait bearing thing. you don't court someone just because they look good like in dating in courting you are trying to get to know who the person is to see if they are who you want to spend the rest of your life with.there is no kissing,touching,or any of the like be cause your parents "should" always be in the next room or in the same room(no being completely alone) in courting,but in dating anything goes as long as both are willing.that is why I choose to court. it's less look based and more about the person.

So many problems here...

When I started dating my wife, I lived on my own. My parents at the time neither one were living a godly lifestyle and I wanted NONE of their advice because their marriage was shambles, and my dad was a lying hypocritical, porn addicted guy who bankrupted the family and my mother has multiple mental illnesses and a violent temper. To this day I have to watch her when she is around my wife because of occasional fits of violence.

Also, I have known chaste daters. My wife and I held hands and hugged before the wedding, some back rubs and simple touch. By simple touch I mean normal, cuddling touch that I would not have been embarrassed for her grandmother to see. Foot rubs were a big one. We dated.

I have known multiple courtships where the girl got pregnant. I have also seen courtship result in rotten marriage because the couples fell in love with being with someone in courtship and not paying attention to who they actually were marrying.

The problems of dating and courtship are usually identical. Each have a few nuanced roadblock issues, but in each case, the issue will not be a system. The answer will be purity of heart and deed.

[bradguitarbeast]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Your average, promiscous teen who has never darkened the door of a church general would disagree with this. Dating is viewed even in the most liberal, secular side of things as actually being some form of comitment level in a relationship.

the only bods of comitment that are godly are the ones that are in holy matrimony.

I dated my wife prior to marriage.

and your point here is???

Right, this would have been dating for lustful reasons. Always wrong to do. However, dating is not the issue here. The sin of lust being the motive is.

lust is not sin.the word lust simply means desire.the fulfilling of that desire in an ungodly way is the sin.if a man lusts for his wife it is a good thing. it is when he lusts for another woman that it becomes sin.

So many problems here...

When I started dating my wife, I lived on my own. My parents at the time neither one were living a godly lifestyle and I wanted NONE of their advice because their marriage was shambles, and my dad was a lying hypocritical, porn addicted guy who bankrupted the family and my mother has multiple mental illnesses and a violent temper. To this day I have to watch her when she is around my wife because of occasional fits of violence.

well I would agree that to trust parents like that to look after you in a courting relationship is worthless and kinda kills the purpose.also.no offense intended but your parents were probably dating before they got married.if I am wrong feel free to tell me.

Also, I have known chaste daters. My wife and I held hands and hugged before the wedding, some back rubs and simple touch. By simple touch I mean normal, cuddling touch that I would not have been embarrassed for her grandmother to see. Foot rubs were a big one. We dated.

I have known multiple courtships where the girl got pregnant. I have also seen courtship result in rotten marriage because the couples fell in love with being with someone in courtship and not paying attention to who they actually were marrying.

how often do these things happen in a dating relationship? I can tell you that the percentage is to the roof and that when things like this happen it is almost always in a dating relationship.

The problems of dating and courtship are usually identical. Each have a few nuanced roadblock issues, but in each case, the issue will not be a system. The answer will be purity of heart and deed.

agreed.....100%

[SecretAgentRat]

Originally Posted by bradguitarbeast

how often do these things happen in a dating relationship? I can tell you that the percentage is to the roof and that when things like this happen it is almost always in a dating relationship.

"Dating" does not cause people to sin anymore than Bathsheba caused David to sin. Certainly the temptation to sin will be present in any relationship, it's what is then done with that temptation that makes the difference.

We need to stop getting hung up on arbitrary words that (culturally) mean a plethora of different things for any number of different people, and recognize that it is only the heart that matters. "Dating" vs. "courtship" isn't the problem. "Is God being glorified in all of my relationships?" that should be the question being asked, no matter what you decide to call them.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by bradguitarbeast

the only bods of comitment that are godly are the ones that are in holy matrimony.

Neither courting nor dating are equivalent to holy matrimony. Both or neither can end in holy and loving marriages.

well I would agree that to trust parents like that to look after you in a courting relationship is worthless and kinda kills the purpose.also.no offense intended but your parents were probably dating before they got married.if I am wrong feel free to tell me.

Making ignorant assumptions about another couple's relationship to prove your own point is beyond rude and uncalled for. I think you owe Bill an apology.

how often do these things happen in a dating relationship? I can tell you that the percentage is to the roof and that when things like this happen it is almost always in a dating relationship.

You have a percentage? Let's see some statistics and citations, please.

Guess what? I've seen a ton of instances of backstabbing, gossiping, cheating, violence, and one-night stands between people in a friends relationship. There are millions of people out there who have taken friendship and perverted it in horrible ways. I suppose Christians shouldn't have friends, it might lead to one of those things...

In all seriousness, it's what other people have said numerous times: the problem is not with the system of "dating," it's with the bad attitudes and perversions that people can bring to any relationship, be it dating, courting, or even friendship. The fact that dating relationships can and do sometimes go wrong doesn't mean that the problem is with the system of dating itself.

[bradguitarbeast]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentRat

"Dating" does not cause people to sin anymore than Bathsheba caused David to sin. Certainly the temptation to sin will be present in any relationship, it's what is then done with that temptation that makes the difference.

We need to stop getting hung up on arbitrary words that (culturally) mean a plethora of different things for any number of different people, and recognize that it is only the heart that matters. "Dating" vs. "courtship" isn't the problem. "Is God being glorified in all of my relationships?" that should be the question being asked, no matter what you decide to call them.

right. but can you honestly tell me that GOD is pleased with you kissing a (you profile picture is a woman so i'll assume thats what you are)man that he might not want for you.GOD created you lips for 1 man alone as he created the rest of you.LEVITICUS 18:20Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor's wife, to defile thyself with her

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by bradguitarbeast

right. but can you honestly tell me that GOD is pleased with you kissing a (you profile picture is a woman so i'll assume thats what you are)man that he might not want for you.GOD created you lips for 1 man alone as he created the rest of you.LEVITICUS 18:20Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor's wife, to defile thyself with her

Lying with a woman is far different from kissing her....

[SecretAgentRat]

Originally Posted by bradguitarbeast

right. but can you honestly tell me that GOD is pleased with you kissing a (you profile picture is a woman so i'll assume thats what you are)man that he might not want for you.GOD created you lips for 1 man alone as he created the rest of you.LEVITICUS 18:20Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbor's wife, to defile thyself with her

Having sex is different than kissing--don't twist scripture. Norms for kissing are different in every culture. Did you know that in some cultures kissing is not considered a sexual act?
Personally, I don't have a problem with kissing outside of marriage. That doesn't mean I want to go around kissing everyone and their dog (well...maybe their dogs... ) but that I do not feel that it is an act that is taboo without marriage.
I believe this is something that must be left up to personal conviction because it is not expressly addressed in Scripture.

[bradguitarbeast]

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

Lying with a woman is far different from kissing her....

if you look at a woman and lust after her in your heart you have already commited adultery.and to you bill Preston as I said I meant no offense.if I did offend you i am sorry.

[SecretAgentRat]

Is kissing solely an act of lust?
Definitely not when I kiss my father.
Certainly it can be (not with my dad...you know what I mean), but so can any number of perfectly suitable actions.

[bradguitarbeast]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentRat

Is kissing solely an act of lust?
Definitely not when I kiss my father.
Certainly it can be (not with my dad...you know what I mean), but so can any number of perfectly suitable actions.

what is to say that these so called suitable actions really are? if it can be done in lust it is not suitable outside of marriage.