[Iceman-bass14]

Originally Posted by SarahTheGuitarist

I don't think they just want to make trouble. I think that, if they're retired baseball players, they're probably genuinely upset, seeing as their sport is being ruled by suspected dopers.

But he was a doper himself.

[monkeysmile]

Originally Posted by SarahTheGuitarist

I don't think they just want to make trouble. I think that, if they're retired baseball players, they're probably genuinely upset, seeing as their sport is being ruled by suspected dopers.


Cheating... and even just suspicions of cheating... can take the fun out of everything.

You're right, they want money as well.

[Shredcheddar]

I don't like A-Rod, and I think he doesn't really mesh with the fabric of baseball's culture, but I hope he surpasses Bonds' record within the next five or six years simply because I believe Bonds cheated.

I find it hard to ignore all the evidence against Barry Bonds. Looking at all the circumstances and how all of the pieces of the puzzle fit together, the most reasonable and valid conclusion is that Barry Bonds took some sort of illegal performance-enhancing drugs.

But to say it's bad for baseball... I have to disagree. I hate what it's done to the integrity of the game, and don't say it's the same as spitballs and tall mounds like back in the old era of baseball, because it's a completely different situation. Revenue is at a peak, and there's been a ton of interest surrounding Bonds' breaking of Aaron's record. All the proof you need is to see the reaction to 755 in San Diego: even with all the swirling controversy, all the Padres fans were on their feet and were gasping, cheering and applauding Barry Bonds as he rounded the bases. It wasn't a swarm of boos; there was almost a level of awe about it. So yeah, it's been a great decade for baseball as a business.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by Shredcheddar

But to say it's bad for baseball... I have to disagree. I hate what it's done to the integrity of the game, and don't say it's the same as spitballs and tall mounds like back in the old era of baseball, because it's a completely different situation. Revenue is at a peak, and there's been a ton of interest surrounding Bonds' breaking of Aaron's record. All the proof you need is to see the reaction to 755 in San Diego: even with all the swirling controversy, all the Padres fans were on their feet and were gasping, cheering and applauding Barry Bonds as he rounded the bases. It wasn't a swarm of boos; there was almost a level of awe about it. So yeah, it's been a great decade for baseball as a business.

As a old school sort of baseball guy, you're right. This whole thing is great for business...but for the game itself...it's completely undermined the integrity of it.

[Jonular]

Originally Posted by Adam K

I hope Conseco is right about A-rod. I despise A-rod, more specifically the Yankees.

Conseco really made himself look like a complete moron when he said "I have stuff on A Rod." How much more desperate can you make yourself sound? The guy wants to sell more copies of his next book so he can make money. "I have stuff"?

Oh, and he never played on the same team as Alex. Something to remember, heh.

[comitatus1]

Originally Posted by monkeysmile

I believe he did it just as naturally as A-Rod is doing it or Aaron did it. How come nobody is accusing Rodriguez of steroids? Youngest player to 500, he must be cheating somehow.

I don't think so. For one thing, his head is the right size.

Chris

[comitatus1]

Originally Posted by monkeysmile

Can you prove he cheated? He's been tested countless times and has always come clean, and as we all know steroids must be taken continuously if they are to profit you anything. Bonds is 43 years old and has 22 homeruns this season, why do all those other homeruns he hit when he was younger and in better shape have to be from steroids? I'm getting so tired of all the Bonds haters saying he took steroids so they can try and make believe he didn't really break the record.

I don't think anybody claims that Bonds would be a bad player had he not taken steroids. There's no doubt he was a very good player when he was younger. But steroids gave him that extra edge that pushed him into the "dominant" player category. All you have to do is look at his stats, especially slugging percentage, to see that something was going on:
Year Age %
2000 35 .688
2001 36 .863
2002 37 .799
2003 38 .749
2004 39 .812
2005 40 .667

Source:http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bondsba01.shtml

At age 35, his slugging percentage was the best it had ever been, but look at how it simply skyrocketed in 2001, when Bonds was 36 years old! At the very time when his skills should have been eroding due to age, they were enhanced instead. These are incredibly high numbers and they are so high because he was juiced. End of story.

Sure, the last couple of years have been less than stellar [although still what most players would be more than happy with] but look at how his playing time has diminished. Even 'roids can only do so much for you.

Chris

Chris

[Shredcheddar]

Let's not forget that he hired trainer Greg Anderson around what, the 1999 season, right after Sosa/McGwire shared the baseball spotlight. This is also when he balooned in size. Now Greg Anderson is implicated/involved in the BALCO case and is still in jail because he refuses to testify against Bonds! Why else would any of this be going on?

[Iceman-bass14]

Originally Posted by Shredcheddar

But to say it's bad for baseball... I have to disagree. I hate what it's done to the integrity of the game, and don't say it's the same as spitballs and tall mounds like back in the old era of baseball, because it's a completely different situation. Revenue is at a peak, and there's been a ton of interest surrounding Bonds' breaking of Aaron's record. All the proof you need is to see the reaction to 755 in San Diego: even with all the swirling controversy, all the Padres fans were on their feet and were gasping, cheering and applauding Barry Bonds as he rounded the bases. It wasn't a swarm of boos; there was almost a level of awe about it. So yeah, it's been a great decade for baseball as a business.

Yeah i guess maybe so in selling tickets but not on the TV part of baseball.I read an article on yahoo that about 17 million househoulds were watching when Aaron broke the record.However only about 995,000 were watching when Bonds broke the record.I know i wasnt.It was joyless for me and i couldnt car.I will say that yes the season with Sosa/McGwire was the beginning of the revival of baseball but it did take integrity away from the game.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by Iceman-bass14

Yeah i guess maybe so in selling tickets but not on the TV part of baseball.I read an article on yahoo that about 17 million househoulds were watching when Aaron broke the record.However only about 995,000 were watching when Bonds broke the record.I know i wasnt.It was joyless for me and i couldnt car.I will say that yes the season with Sosa/McGwire was the beginning of the revival of baseball but it did take integrity away from the game.

I don't think we'll really be able to measure the damage the steroids era has done to baseball for another couple years. Back when Aaron broke the record it was a big deal. I feel like back then people who watched sports were much more hardcore about their team and being fans. Maybe it was just how I grew up, but I knew all about guys like Mantle, Williams, Musial, Aaron, the Yaz (Yastrzemski), Rod Carew, Lou Brock, Brooks Robinson, Koufax, Drysdale, Gibson, Winfield...

and I think every one of those guys retired before I was born.

I really feel like when I have kids of my own, if they're interested in baseball I'll be teaching them about Tony Gwynn and Fred McGriff. I don't know if I'll talk about Sosa, McGwire or Bonds very much at all. I'm sure part of it is that I've always been a big fan of pitchers duels and small ball...but I can't see teaching my kids to idolize home run kings the way so many baseball watchers do.

I guess I feel like baseball has become about the celebrities and the individual accomplishments. There's certainly some individuals who have worked hard and done it right and are genuinely great guys. I want my kids to know about guys like Dave Roberts and Craig Biggio. I want them to know that it's never okay to jog down the first baseline because you never know when the infielder or first baseman will bobble the ball. I want them to understand every facet of the game...how to hit for an average, sacrifice bunt...

maybe I'm just in love with the fundamentals of the game...I feel like I don't see a lot of fundamental baseball being played anymore...most teams don't have more than one person who can be relied on to sacrifice bunt...that's depressing to me.

I say all this because I don't feel like the majority of "fans' today love baseball the way previous generations did. They love their players and the celebrity of it all, but their basic understanding of the game is severely lacking. My generation is in love with the longball...and that's really too bad.

[Iceman-bass14]

Originally Posted by thesteve

I really feel like when I have kids of my own, if they're interested in baseball I'll be teaching them about Tony Gwynn and Fred McGriff. I don't know if I'll talk about Sosa, McGwire or Bonds very much at all. I'm sure part of it is that I've always been a big fan of pitchers duels and small ball...but I can't see teaching my kids to idolize home run kings the way so many baseball watchers do.

I guess I feel like baseball has become about the celebrities and the individual accomplishments. There's certainly some individuals who have worked hard and done it right and are genuinely great guys. I want my kids to know about guys like Dave Roberts and Craig Biggio. I want them to know that it's never okay to jog down the first baseline because you never know when the infielder or first baseman will bobble the ball. I want them to understand every facet of the game...how to hit for an average, sacrifice bunt...

Yep.My dad would always tell my baseball team (when i was in little league) aobut fred mcgriff and how he (fred) would work off a tee to work on his swing.It feels like now though no matter what you'll accomplish it'll be overshadowed cause we dont know whos legitate and whos not.One things for sure i'll tell my kids about Hank Aaron,Sid Bream,John Smoltz,Maddox,Glavine,Schilling,Luis Gonzalez,Biggio,Grissom,Puckett(even though he beat the braves),Gwynn,Ripken,Gibson,Nolan Ryan,and countless others that i would consider greats that never really did anything significant HR wise.

On a side note i think the past induction to the hall of fame of Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr. is one of last great ones.Dont get me wrong there are others that deserve it and wil get it but i dont think there were any 2 other guys more deserving and good guys off the field too.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by Iceman-bass14

On a side note i think the past induction to the hall of fame of Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr. is one of last great ones.Dont get me wrong there are others that deserve it and wil get it but i dont think there were any 2 other guys more deserving and good guys off the field too.

Greg Maddux will be deserving when he retires...according to who else is in his retiring class it might be another good year.

The way baseball has changed over the years is forcing us to change the way we look at records. I've heard things said about 600 HRs being the new 500 HRs...though I don't think that's really the case. I read recently that there have been more guys breaking into the 500 club in previous decades than this decade.

What has changed significantly is the 300 win club. Glavine just joined...is anyone else close? Does anyone else have a shot? If Pedro Martinez can make a comeback and average 12-15 wins a season for another 6-8 years he could make it in...but who knows if he can last that long...after him I can't think of anyone that will come close to pushing 300.

[saveferris1643]

Originally Posted by Iceman-bass14

On a side note i think the past induction to the hall of fame of Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr. is one of last great ones.Dont get me wrong there are others that deserve it and wil get it but i dont think there were any 2 other guys more deserving and good guys off the field too.

You're right. The only other people I can think of that would be Craig Biggio, Tom Glavine, and Greg Maddox that will be in the Hall of Fame soon. And Ken Griffey Jr.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by saveferris1643

You're right. The only other people I can think of that would be Craig Biggio, Tom Glavine, and Greg Maddox that will be in the Hall of Fame soon. And Ken Griffey Jr.

indeed. All four of those guys should be first ballot HOFs. I've heard some people say that Ken shouldn't get in because of his recent injuries...give me a break. The guy's got 589 homers and a lifetime .290 BA. He also won the Gold Glove from 1990-1999.
The guy was THE dominant player in baseball for most of the 1990s...he's gotta be in first ballot.

[saveferris1643]

Originally Posted by thesteve

indeed. All four of those guys should be first ballot HOFs. I've heard some people say that Ken shouldn't get in because of his recent injuries...give me a break. The guy's got 589 homers and a lifetime .290 BA. He also won the Gold Glove from 1990-1999.
The guy was THE dominant player in baseball for most of the 1990s...he's gotta be in first ballot.

Yeah, if he didn't miss like 3 full seasons he would of had close to 700 HR. And he did it clean, as far as we know(Canseco hasn't called him out yet). But he'll probably be mentioned in Jose's new book, along with Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle.