[Jas de F]

Originally Posted by Danny

Yes. The artistic, aesthetic, or technical quality of the music or vocal performance, the poetic nature of the lyrics...any number of things can be enjoyed about a song with blasphemous lyrics that have nothing to do with the message itself.

so I take it your argument is that you listen to blasphemous songs/bands because you like the music and you don't pay attention to the lyrics?

1. as I said earlier, if such is the case, why don't you simply listen to instrumental music of the sort you say you like? why listen to songs with blasphemous lyrics and thus fill your mind with those things?

2. perhaps you do listen to such songs because you like the music and not because you like the lyrics. I personally think doubt that. however, let's say you do. I would suggest that the lyrics still have an effect on you.

sleep learning works because you absorb things that you hear. even if you listen to songs simply because you like the music, you are still most certainly absorbing the lyrics in the songs.

additionally, everyone acknowledges that music influences one's emotions. music is different than things like reading...it's impossible to deny it. that's why it's so much more enjoyable to, for instance, sit and listen to Simon and Garfunkel sing "Sounds of Silence" than it is to simply sit and read the lyrics without music. when set to music, lyrics influence one's emotions, thoughts, and even beliefs. that's why people make a big deal out of lyrics with bad theology...it's not possible to listen to music and objectively and logically analyze the lyrical content while you listen to it because music appeals to your emotions. so if you sit and listen to bad theology in lyrics or blasphemous lyrics set to music your emotions "take over" (because that's what music DOES to you) and you absorb and are inevitably influenced by the lyrics. doubly so if you sing along to the lyrics.

3. you know the logical fallacy "argumentum ad nauseam"? it's defined on this site: "Argumentum ad nauseam or argument from repetition is the false proof of a statement by (prolonged) repetition, possibly by different people. This logical fallacy is commonly used as a form of rhetoric. In its extreme form, it can also be a form of brainwashing."

in other words, if someone sits and repeats a lie over and over to you then you will begin to believe it. and it's even worse if the lie is repeated to you by multiple people. not to mention that when you're emotional because you're listening to music it's that much harder to think logically so you can argue against things that are lies.

4. Phil. 4:8 says: "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." whether you listen to blasphemous lyrics because you enjoy them or not, you inevitably think on them. how are you thinking on things that are true, honest, just, etc. when you sit and think on lyrics like "Oh so many ways for me to show you/How the savior has abandoned you/F*** your God/Your Lord and your Christ"? especially considering you listen to them set to music, which means your emotions are being manipulated/influence. especially considering the expression of such an attitude towards God is nowhere repudiated in the "Judith" lyrics. do you sing along to music? a lot of people do, myself included. how are you not blaspheming God by singing along to "Judith," if you do sing along to it?

5. considering the huge amount of music in the world and how much of it is technically and artistically proficient, why is it necessary to choose artistically proficient music that simultaneously fills one's mind with blasphemy over the thousands of other songs/bands/whatever that are not blasphemous but ARE artistically proficient?

6. I just listened to the Amazon sample of "Judith." it's loud, sounds like metal, and sounds like Tool. I previously owned Tool's "Lateralus" (which I sold cause I needed cash). while the music (unsurprisingly, considering Tool and A Perfect Circle share some band members or whatever) sounded VERY similar to that in "Judith," none of the lyrics were blasphemous. I like music of the sort Tool plays (as you do) and so I wanted to listen to them. but I also wanted to make sure I wasn't filling my mind with blasphemy in the process...because while I like the music, I don't and never have liked music where I can't enjoy the lyrics as well. so I previewed the CD at pluggedinonline.com before I bought it. there's practically nothing objectionable in the CD. yet if you take a look at the review of "Mer De Noms" you see that the CD is full of objectionable (and especially blasphemous) content. why listen to "Mer De Noms," and especially the particular song brought up in the other thread ("Judith"), when you say you listen for the music and not the lyrics and you can find exactly the same style of music in Tool minus the blasphemy?

7. especially for girls, but for guys too...why further strip away your innocence by exposing yourself to these things, anyways? after all, it'sbad enough that it exists in this world, no? why use it for your entertainment when there are so many true, pure, honest, etc things that can be used for entertainment?

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Pieter Friedrich

so I take it your argument is that you listen to blasphemous songs/bands because you like the music and you don't pay attention to the lyrics?

Don't pay attention to them? No, not at all. Usually I pretty deeply study the lyrics of every band I listen to, whether moral or not. It intrigues me and interests me to learn what the artist is trying to get across in any given piece. Additionally, coming to a better understanding of where unbelievers are coming from their opposition of Christianity and God can be very useful for witnessing. Frankly, I think it would be a crime to simply turn a blind eye to the sin that exists in the world. It does exist, and we need to address it, not merely abstain from paying attention to it. If I can enjoy some good music at the same time, heck, why not?

1. as I said earlier, if such is the case, why don't you simply listen to instrumental music of the sort you say you like? why listen to songs with blasphemous lyrics and thus fill your mind with those things?

1. For one, APC is a very unique band, and "Judith" is a unique song. I like both, so I listen to them.
2. Again, I don't see how this has any relevence at all as to the sinfulness of listening to APC or "Judith," or any music with blasphemous lyrics. It's about like me asking a PC gamer why they don't just abstain from PC games and instead play console games of the same sort. The response I would get is, "Why?" You have yet to prove that it's even wrong to listen to it to begin with, so why should I be looking for alternatives?
3. You'll have to prove that "filling my mind" unchristian beliefs (as opposed to ignoring the fact that they exist) is damaging or sinful.

2. perhaps you do listen to such songs because you like the music and not because you like the lyrics. I personally think doubt that.

??? Oh yes, let me tell you what, I really get off on hearing artists blaspheme the name of my Lord. Exactly what sort of implication are you making on my character by insinuating that I enjoy blasphemous lyrics?

however, let's say you do. I would suggest that the lyrics still have an effect on you.

sleep learning works because you absorb things that you hear. even if you listen to songs simply because you like the music, you are still most certainly absorbing the lyrics in the songs.

Beat you to it. I know the lyrics to "Judith" by heart. I didn't need to let it subliminally soak in. I didn't need to absorb them. I know exactly what Maynard is saying with the song, I know exactly what his stance on religion is, and I'm vehemently opposed to it. Next?

additionally, everyone acknowledges that music influences one's emotions. music is different than things like reading...it's impossible to deny it. that's why it's so much more enjoyable to, for instance, sit and listen to Simon and Garfunkel sing "Sounds of Silence" than it is to simply sit and read the lyrics without music.

I have no qualms with this. Listening to music is an emotional experience.

when set to music, lyrics influence one's emotions, thoughts, and even beliefs.

I'd like to see you prove this. I've been listening to APC, Tool, Nine Inch Nails, Marilyn Manson, the Smashing Pumpkins, and any other number of unchristian bands for some time now, and I'm still a devout, reformed Christian, last I checked. Exactly when does the whole, belief-changing influence kick in? Because it apparently hasn't taken effect yet.

that's why people make a big deal out of lyrics with bad theology...it's not possible to listen to music and objectively and logically analyze the lyrical content while you listen to it because music appeals to your emotions.

And emotions are completely seperate from logical thought. Logic and emotion are inversely related. An emotional response to a song is quite possible, and even expected. A change in belief or ideals is simply not, because they are not directly related to emtion. I have plenty of emotional qualms with certain tenets of Christianity and the Bible. But I am still a Christian, and I still hold the Bible to be infallible, because my beliefs are based on logical thought and faith, not on emotion.

so if you sit and listen to bad theology in lyrics or blasphemous lyrics set to music your emotions "take over" (because that's what music DOES to you) and you absorb and are inevitably influenced by the lyrics. doubly so if you sing along to the lyrics.

Again...I'd really like to see you prove this claim. In all my time of listening to secular music, my ideals have not once been influenced by an emotional response to a song. If I hear something intriguing or interesting in the lyrics of a song while I'm listening to it, I'll typically look up the lyrics and then do some study as to what they mean.

3. you know the logical fallacy "argumentum ad nauseam"? it's defined on this site: "Argumentum ad nauseam or argument from repetition is the false proof of a statement by (prolonged) repetition, possibly by different people. This logical fallacy is commonly used as a form of rhetoric. In its extreme form, it can also be a form of brainwashing."

in other words, if someone sits and repeats a lie over and over to you then you will begin to believe it. and it's even worse if the lie is repeated to you by multiple people. not to mention that when you're emotional because you're listening to music it's that much harder to think logically so you can argue against things that are lies.

This is incredibly off-base. I am quite familiar with the term, argumentum ad nauseum, and it is exactly as you originally described it; it's a logical fallacy, or an invalid argument, in the same vein that a strawman argument is a logical fallacy. The term is only applicable during a debate, when one party attempts to prove his point by use of an ad nauseum argument. It has absolutely no application to listening to music, because, as you admitted yourself, listening to music is not a logical process, and argumentum ad nauseum is a logical fallacy. It's not applicable.

4. Phil. 4:8 says: "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." whether you listen to blasphemous lyrics because you enjoy them or not, you inevitably think on them. how are you thinking on things that are true, honest, just, etc. when you sit and think on lyrics like "Oh so many ways for me to show you/How the savior has abandoned you/F*** your God/Your Lord and your Christ"? especially considering you listen to them set to music, which means your emotions are being manipulated/influence. especially considering the expression of such an attitude towards God is nowhere repudiated in the "Judith" lyrics.

Interesting enough, I typically use Phillipians 4:8 as a defense of listening to secular music, not an opposition of it. Note that it says, "If there is any excellence, and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things." (NASB) The musical composition of "Judith" is quite excellent and praiseworthy, even though the lyrical message is not. Furthermore, I'm not sure it's valid to take from this verse the implication that it is sinful to think on things that are not honorable, right, pure, et al, especially for purposes of cultural study. All it is doing is instructing the Church to dwell on things that are honorable, right, pure, et al.

do you sing along to music? a lot of people do, myself included. how are you not blaspheming God by singing along to "Judith," if you do sing along to it?

Most of the time, I do, but when I'm listening to music with dubious lyrics, I typically intentionally refrain from singing along to err on the side of caution. Interestingly enough, when I'm listening to "Judith," more often than not I'm playing along on my guitar (as it's one of the few songs I can play reasonably well ).

5. considering the huge amount of music in the world and how much of it is technically and artistically proficient, why is it necessary to choose artistically proficient music that simultaneously fills one's mind with blasphemy over the thousands of other songs/bands/whatever that are not blasphemous but ARE artistically proficient?

I'd answer this the same way I'd answer your question #1. APC is artistic in a unique way; in a manner which can't simply be substituted with an "alternative." And...again...this has absolutely no relevence to whether or not it's sinful to listen to APC.

6. I just listened to the Amazon sample of "Judith." it's loud, sounds like metal, and sounds like Tool. I previously owned Tool's "Lateralus" (which I sold cause I needed cash). while the music (unsurprisingly, considering Tool and A Perfect Circle share some band members or whatever) sounded VERY similar to that in "Judith," none of the lyrics were blasphemous. I like music of the sort Tool plays (as you do) and so I wanted to listen to them. but I also wanted to make sure I wasn't filling my mind with blasphemy in the process...because while I like the music, I don't and never have liked music where I can't enjoy the lyrics as well. so I previewed the CD at pluggedinonline.com before I bought it. there's practically nothing objectionable in the CD.

1. They share the same lead singer, Maynard James Keenan.
2. As any APC and Tool fan will tell you, the two have very substantially distinct sounds. Personally, I prefer APC's.
3. No, Lateralus does not have blasphemous lyrics, but it has plenty of "objectional content." Nearly every song on the album is morally tained by Maynard's eastern-influenced, humanistic philosophical worldview. "We are eternal/ All this pain is an illusion"? "Swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human"? "And you will come to find that we are all one mind/ Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable"? The lyrics are pretty screwed up, my friend; blasphemous or not.

[QUOTE]

yet if you take a look at the review of "Mer De Noms" you see that the CD is full of objectionable (and especially blasphemous) content.

I read both their review of Lateralus and Mer de Noms, and I'm really curious as to why they gave so much leniency to the former and not the latter. Realistically speaking, they are both about on the same moral level, when you discount "Judith." And their interpretation of "The Hollow" is inaccurate, at least in my mind; it speaks of sexual gratification as merely a "temporary pacifier," and displays Keenan's longing for something more permanent and real. (" 'Cause it's time to bring the fire down/ Bridle all this indiscretion/ Long enough to edify/ And permanently fill this hollow")

why listen to "Mer De Noms," and especially the particular song brought up in the other thread ("Judith"), when you say you listen for the music and not the lyrics and you can find exactly the same style of music in Tool minus the blasphemy?

As I said, they're somewhat similar, but far from "exactly the same style of music." I much prefer Thirteenth Step (APC's latest album) to Lateralus (or Mer de Noms, for that matter).

7. especially for girls, but for guys too...why further strip away your innocence by exposing yourself to these things, anyways? after all, it'sbad enough that it exists in this world, no? why use it for your entertainment when there are so many true, pure, honest, etc things that can be used for entertainment?

Are you kidding me?! Strip away our innocence?!? Are you actually suggesting that we merely turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the existence of sin and ungodly ideals in our world? How are we to witness to unbelievers if we don't understand them?

By the way, it should be noted that this is, by far, the most enjoyable and intelligent debate I've had thus far about this topic. Thank you for not being horribly irrational/hypocritical with your arguments. And I mean that.

[Danny]

Oh, and thank you for putting so much time and thought into your post. It frustrates me to no end when I spend an hour or more posing an argument and checking my facts, just to get a cheap, half-baked rebuttal within five minutes.

[Jas de F]

I will be replying to this as soon as I can. right now, though, I'm leaving for the ER. I gotta spend 8 hours in the ER for my EMT class. so it'll be a bit before I can reply to this post, cause I'm probably going to be sleeping all day tomorrow.

[Danny]

Eight hours? Beginning at 7 AM?? Good grief. Well, have fun.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Pieter Friedrich

"Oh so many ways for me to show you/How the savior has abandoned you/F*** your God/Your Lord and your Christ"

BLASPHEMER!!!! I demand you repent right now. How dare you expose us to your blaspheme.

why listen to "Mer De Noms," and especially the particular song brought up in the other thread ("Judith"), when you say you listen for the music and not the lyrics and you can find exactly the same style of music in Tool minus the blasphemy?

Is this is joke? You've got to be kidding. First off, Maynard blasphemes, cusses and spreads evil political and philosphical views in tool too. So your point is lost. Anyway, A Perfect Circle barely sounds like Tool beyond Maynard. Judith is the only song by them that even comes close to sounding like a Tool song...and it isn't that similiar if you really pay attention to Tool's music. Further, A Perfect Circle's other music sounds nothing like anything tool has ever done. Your point is completley lost.

7. especially for girls, but for guys too...why further strip away your innocence by exposing yourself to these things, anyways?

Its more okay for guys to be exposed to evil? Are you trying to be sexist?

[Adam]

Once again, music is being singled out as some special sphere of life where blasphemy must be ignored at all costs, regardless of aesthetic or otherwise rational implications.

I guess we can't read Nietchze. I guess we can't read Voltaire. Actually, since anything an atheist says can be considered blasphemous, since he starts with an automonous and blasphemous worldview, we shouldn't read or watch or listen to a lot of things. Why are we surprised when an atheist/unbeliever openly rejects God? Even if he doesn't linguistically blaspheme God, he is still inherently rejecting God and blaspheming him in his heart and mind. So, why the double standard?

In my Christian school, I read many Greek works and may Enlightenment texts. Nearly all of the them reject God, either through paganism or in the name of science. That's not why we read them though. We read them because they express something of the true, the good, and the beautiful, regardless of the worldview. Its called common grace.

"Judith" is a good song, not for its blasphemous lyrics, but for its skilled musicianship. That's why we listen to it. That's why we listen to secular music. Because we enjoy the good and the beautiful, even if its not true sometimes.

[ajacob]

hmm, I agree with most of Danny's points but I've got my own comments to add:

I used to think I was quite a liberal Christian in terms of what I'd listen to and enjoy (not the blasphemy btw); I don't have a problem with Billy Corgan saying 'God is empty just like me' or 'Jesus was an only son for you'. Maybe it's because he seems to be speaking out of spite in the former and dissilusionment in the latter, but it doesn't bother me that much. However, I feel distinctly uncomfortable when listening to something like Judith. It's the hate in that song that gets to me, how else can you interpret it when you hear words like "F*** your God/Your Lord and your Christ"? It's not something I'd want to hear on my own and I would certainly avoid going to a concert where everyone around me would be chanting those lyrics. I understand the fine distinction between Jesus telling us to be 'in' this world, but not 'of' this world, but I couldn't advocate listening to that song without feeling like I've overstepped the mark somehow.

I love appreciating the gifts that God has given some people, be it in music, literature or art in general. But can you honestly tell me as a Christian, you don't feel the slightest bit uncomfortable when listening to someone showing their hatred/complete dismissal of our Lord? Please be honest with this.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by ajacob

I love appreciating the gifts that God has given some people, be it in music, literature or art in general. But can you honestly tell me as a Christian, you don't feel the slightest bit uncomfortable when listening to someone showing their hatred/complete dismissal of our Lord? Please be honest with this.

To be totally honest (and I'm not proud of this), I've become desensitized to it from listening to it so many times back when I thought it was metaphorical. As a result, it doesn't really bother me like, say, "REV 22:20" does.

I'm curious about what you said regarding Billy Corgan, however; I never really understood his use of "Jesus was an only son for you" in "Bullet with Butterfly Wings." I certainly never assumed it was offensive. What exactly is he saying?

[ajacob]

Well like I said before, I think his attitude in that song is one of dissilusionment or distancing himself from Christianity (or maybe just feeling isolated from the world in general); he feels like Jesus is not relevant to him :

"Jesus was an only son for you........ and I still believe that I cannot be saved"

It's quite a powerful song. Corgan's one of the few artists in contemporary music who can really convey true feelings of confusion or desolation.

Going OT, but have you heard Machina: the machines of God ? To me it's their best album. His attitude's a lot different as well, instead of rejecting God he does a lot of soul-searching, and writes some great music as well. I recommend it.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by ajacob

Going OT, but have you heard Machina: the machines of God ? To me it's their best album. His attitude's a lot different as well, instead of rejecting God he does a lot of soul-searching, and writes some great music as well. I recommend it.

I haven't heard that album, yet. I should check it out when I get the opportunity. Also, need I even mention Zwan's Mary Star of the Sea? Heh.

[Sean]

Someone just mentioned Machina and "best" in the same sentence, but the word "not" was not present. Something is very wrong here.

[funguy44x]

WEll, i think it's up yo your personal convictions. but if the group is anti-God, then no. like, if You're a christain, you shouldn't listen to marlyn manson and insane clown posse. why? because they pray everyday to satan, hoping that YOU will die and then rot in hell with him.

[Sean]

I seriously doubt they pray to satan and hope you die. They are characters. Behind the make up they're regular depraved people in need of the Saviour.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by funguy44x

WEll, i think it's up yo your personal convictions. but if the group is anti-God, then no. like, if You're a christain, you shouldn't listen to marlyn manson and insane clown posse. why? because they pray everyday to satan, hoping that YOU will die and then rot in hell with him.

HAHAHAHAHA! Answers like this are always amusing. I can't speak for Insane Clown Posse (which is fine, because they suck anyhow), but Brian Warner does not believe in the supernatural to any degree, let alone "Pray to Satan."