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View Poll Results: Should you listen to secular music?
It's not really a big deal 155 64.58%
No, you should not listen to secular music 44 18.33%
You should listen to Secular Music 41 17.08%
Voters: 240. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 06-10-2002, 09:23 AM   #91
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[The Philosopher]Again, as many will notice, boogeray is just throwing out verses, and he is not showing how they correlate to mine and several others cases.

Boogeray, you simply can't just chuck a verse out there. It misrepresents our case and tells us that you have not really examined our cases very well at all.

I also beseech you to stop accusing your brothers in Christ of being blinded by the devil, and open your own eyes to our case instead of blatantly and arbitrarily throwing verses out. You are the one who is blinded, because you can't even show how these verses relate to our case and argument.


[R2D2]I wholeheartedly agree with this verse, but it does nothing to convince me that I shouldn't listen to secular music. I agree that we are to abstain from evil; but is all secular music evil by nature? This is the question that must be answered if we are to get anywhere in this debate. Please focus on answering this question in future postings if you would like to get anywhere in this debate. You have stated over and over again that we should abstain from evil, but you have yet to show that all secular music is evil.

[me] so then there is nothing in the bible that deals with this then (at least in your eyes).................far as i'm concerned everything in life is covered in the bible and if you DON'T BELIEVE that the BIBLE IS A END ALL CURE ALL then yes you are severely blinded

all the reasoning previded, by pro secular music, folks here is moot

do you really think that there is a nuetral ground.............a grey area..................do you think that there are more than 2 sources behind everything.................when you get to the bottom of it, it is inspired by God or the devil....................does God inspire secular music?..................one of the main calvinist arguements is that man can do nothing without an influence...................so where does the influence for secular music come from????

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Unread 06-10-2002, 01:22 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by boogeray
[B[me] so then there is nothing in the bible that deals with this then (at least in your eyes).................far as i'm concerned everything in life is covered in the bible and if you DON'T BELIEVE that the BIBLE IS A END ALL CURE ALL then yes you are severely blinded

all the reasoning previded, by pro secular music, folks here is moot

do you really think that there is a nuetral ground.............a grey area..................do you think that there are more than 2 sources behind everything.................when you get to the bottom of it, it is inspired by God or the devil....................does God inspire secular music?..................one of the main calvinist arguements is that man can do nothing without an influence...................so where does the influence for secular music come from???? [/B]
I do not think that the Bible is the end all cure all; Jesus is. Millions of people have read and used the Bible for their evil purposes, and it wasn't an cure all for them, because they didn't have a relationship with Jesus. And I don't believe that everything in life is covered by the Bible. The Bible was written before many issues that are present in the modern world arose. For instance, the Bible is silent on Birth Control (at least I've never seen anything in there about it). The Bible does, however, have guidelines that guide us in our thinking on issues such as these.

By your reasoning, everything that is not explicitly "Christian" is of Satan, if I read you right. So by your reasoning, Winnie the Poon is inspired by Satan. Sesame Street is inspired by Satan. "Happy Birthday" and our national anthem are inspired by Satan.

First off, I don't believe that everything is inspired by either God or Satan directly. Satan is not omnipresent. He cannot inspire multiple people at the same time, but there is a lot of music being written at any one time. Please show me some scripture that says that everything is inspired by God or Satan. I honestly can't think of a single verse.

Secondly, even if everything was inspired by God or Satan, I don't believe that God is confined to the inspiration of music we label "Christian." I do think God can inspire some "secular" music. I think God is glorified through good art, even though it is not always explicitly Christian.

And please, "all the reasoning previded, by pro secular music, folks here is moot?" What gives you the right to declare our arguments invalid?
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Last edited by R2D2; 06-10-2002 at 01:27 PM.
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Unread 06-10-2002, 02:03 PM   #93
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Just wondering, Boogeray, but what about Christian people that don't mention God in thier work, is there anything wrong with that?
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Unread 06-10-2002, 02:28 PM   #94
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Well, if we can't have anything to do with something that's not "God inspired" I better go cancel my internet here, and stop shopping just about anywhere, because as far I know, they're not "God inspired", and the people behind them are just looking for some cash. So it looks like I'll just be living off food that I get from other christians who have been inspired to sell it, and get rid of all my friends who aren't christian, because we should have nothing to do with anything seperated from God. Oh, nevermind, scratch all that, I forgot that my argument is moot.
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Unread 06-10-2002, 03:14 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by froggee501
And someone commented on how Linkin Park was not good because it's just a bunch of questions of emptiness, no answers? Well, I'm betting they are just writing what they feel... I know I've certainly had many many many times when I have been full of questions and empty of answers... don't say "oh, they are bad" because they wrote what they felt.
I coudln't care less about their lyrics, their music is shallow and boring.
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<table><tr><td><IMG SRC="http://www.opeth.com/various/images/promo99/tistel.jpg" WIDTH="263" HEIGHT="194"></td><td><font size=1>Well I threw you the obvious,
Just to see if there's more behind the
Eyes of a fallen angel,
Eyes of a tragedy...

A-ramble on, and now's the time, the time is now
Sing my song, I'm goin' 'round the world, I gotta find my girl
On my way, I've been this way ten years to the day
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Unread 06-10-2002, 03:46 PM   #96
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Ok, for those on the anti-secular side, how do you classify something as "secular"? By it's ability to chart on a music chart? By the themes?

If these are your arguments, then neither the Newsboys or Switchfoot are "Christian" bands, since the Newsboys deal with "negative" themes (suicide for one) and have charted. Switchfoot have many songs which, if you didn't know the band, you would assume to be by a "secular" band.

Or do you judge them on whether the members are Christian or not?
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Unread 06-10-2002, 04:49 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Or do you judge them on whether the members are Christian or not?
That's how I do it.
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<table><tr><td><IMG SRC="http://www.opeth.com/various/images/promo99/tistel.jpg" WIDTH="263" HEIGHT="194"></td><td><font size=1>Well I threw you the obvious,
Just to see if there's more behind the
Eyes of a fallen angel,
Eyes of a tragedy...

A-ramble on, and now's the time, the time is now
Sing my song, I'm goin' 'round the world, I gotta find my girl
On my way, I've been this way ten years to the day
Ramble on, gotta find the queen of all my dreams...

</font></td></tr></table>
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Unread 06-10-2002, 04:51 PM   #98
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But then again, I'm not on the 'anti-secular' side.
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<table><tr><td><IMG SRC="http://www.opeth.com/various/images/promo99/tistel.jpg" WIDTH="263" HEIGHT="194"></td><td><font size=1>Well I threw you the obvious,
Just to see if there's more behind the
Eyes of a fallen angel,
Eyes of a tragedy...

A-ramble on, and now's the time, the time is now
Sing my song, I'm goin' 'round the world, I gotta find my girl
On my way, I've been this way ten years to the day
Ramble on, gotta find the queen of all my dreams...

</font></td></tr></table>
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Unread 06-10-2002, 06:49 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by jguitarfreak


I agree that you should "understand them", but say if they listen or watch some trash (i.e. Enimem, MTV, etc) should you watch it just to see what their lives are like? How is that any different then taking drugs to minister to drug addicts?
This is a very good question. I think the answer lies in two things. First, prayer to God for protection (mental, spiritual, behavioural, as well as physical). Second, using the brain and common-sense He has given to me. There are some limits to this "culturization" (I'll call it). An individual must know his/her own personal pitfalls. Some things that make me stumble easily aren't even a temptation for you, and vice versa. I will not purposely subject myself to this kind of "pitfall" exposure. Going back to the common-sense thing, I would not take drugs, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, have sex, or view or listen to explicit media. 1 Corinthians 6:19 says that our bodies are the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, which is part of the divine Trinity. BUT, isn't putting all the other garbage into my mind also infiltrating the Holy Ghost space?

Not necessarily. Romans 12:2 - "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind," (Please don't put me into the boogeray category for only using part of the verse) This verse indicates transformation. God can transform your mind and life in a way that all the world's negativity does not affect your life. It is possible. Don't put God in a box!! I will admit, however, that if I lived this youth culture, I would have a hard time making it. Please do not misunderstand and think that I listen to satanic music, or watch sexy Christian-banging shows all the time. I don't. Not even most of the time. But, I do watch it enough to be able to understand what a kid is talking about, and enough to be able to relate the world's hopelessness to his/her life and present a BETTER WAY of Life!!

While I'm babbling, I'm gonna talk about this witness method a little bit more. It is based on developing relationships. Why develop relationships? Afterall, the disciples were able to add hundreds to the church daily, and Billy Graham has affected the world by preaching (he's done a lot without many personal relationships). The reason for developing relationships with youth today is about a trust. Today's culture is flawed in the following significant ways. First, there are very few adults that act and live as God intended adults to be. If there were more adults, there would more true love, child discipline, and thus a great deal more trust. Secondly, with so few normal adults, there are even fewer role models. Just this week we saw another teen role model fall and get caught in scandalous sexual behaviors. Third, there are too many religions, too many denominations, all saying different things. If that isn't confusing enough, every once in a while, we get supposed evangelists and preachers who are money-suckers or get caught in some terrible crime (usually sexual or monetary). Every once in a while, we get great Christian cults like the Heaven's Gate church, or the David Koresh cult (WOW, I still didn't even mention the Catholic church and the recent problems they've had). These three things add up to a huge mis-trust in kids today. I personally experience this. I'm one of the biggest skeptics of new ways of thinking, new methods, and new people to me who are "Christians." Kids do not trust their parents, their teachers, their friends, or their siblings. They believe they can look up to people in the spot light. A reason for this that teens think those people can't really hurt them (since that relationship is not personal).

All of this adds up to a tough time for those of us working out of the spotlight at ground zero (in the kid's world). It takes time to even crack the kids (one method is getting to know and understand their culture a bit), develop a friendship, develop a relationship built on love and genuine care, prove your love, and eventually get a chance to share God's word. Now I'm a terrible person to be a role-model. I have my fair share of problems, but God has shown me the way to an incredible life, something I can't not share. There are other people in my life that I also develop relationships with that are not "youth," but since I'm still fairly young most of my friends and the people I work with are youth.

Jesus himself also used friendship (or relational) evangelism. He came to earth, became a man, hung around the prostitutes and crack-houses, appeared as a cultural rebel, etc., etc. (John 1:14) If it was good enough for Jesus, then it's better than good enough for me.

I'm open to suggestions on other methods of witnessing to people, youth in particular (and cracking their shells). Myself and the others in our youth program are always looking for better ways of reaching the kids.



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May the Lord be always ahead of our own ambitions,

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Unread 06-10-2002, 08:51 PM   #100
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Alright, first off, I would like to admit-I haven't read all the posts on this thread. I got to about page 3 and then started typing. Alright, first I'm going to try to cover my opinions on "why listen to secular music" and then I'll go to "why not listen to secular music". Who thinks that we have to listen to secular music to effectively witness to people and bring them to God? Well, the Bible says that we let our light shine before men. In other words, we let our humbleness and righteousness do the talking for us. How would listening to secular music let your light shine before men? If you want to listen to secular music to make yourself a better guitar player, well then, let's do a priority check. Besides, If you make a rock Cd that sounds like the world, secular groups aren't gonna accept it unless your message is really mild. If your listening to secular music cause you have a craving for a certain genre, then it's necessary to make some sacrifices. Why? you ask? Well then, let me lay down some opinions on "Why NOT listen to secular music". Ok, Black Sabbath is evil. They've been in the occult, their name is sacreligious, and they obviously haven't repented and changed their ways.
1 Thessolonians 5:22 "Abstain from every form of evil". Alright, now then, TRUE STATEMENT-- not all secular music is evil. I don't think it's a sin to go out and buy say, a creed cd. But, obviously, if an artist isn't a Christian, their view is jaded. So if you listen to secular music regularly, your putting lyrics from a jaded point of view into your mind, and the Bible says, "Finally brethren, whatsoever things are good, whatsoever things are holy, etc.... THINK ON THESE THINGS".Now, I don't like calling people out, but who is the guy who went on and on about how if we shouldn't listen to secular music, then we shouldn't read good books and study math and stuff. Hey, Isaac Newton was a Christian, buddy. But anyways, reading good books and listening to classical music doesn't put the jaded thoughts in your mind like listening to jaded vocals and lyrics does.
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Unread 06-11-2002, 01:00 PM   #101
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Quote:
reading good books and listening to classical music doesn't put the jaded thoughts in your mind like listening to jaded vocals and lyrics does
You may have a point about the classical music, although it conveys emotion far more than conventional music, usually.

But the point about books is a nonsense. I, and most other Christian's, take my way of life from a book, the Bible.

Non-Christians do too, whether they know it or not, since popular philosophies all began on someone's page. They don't say the pen is mightier than the sword for no reason.

Quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Scott
Or do you judge them on whether the members are Christian or not?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's how I do it.
If that argument is followed to it's logical conclusion in this setting, only anything made/written/said by Christians is of value, since apparently only Christian bands are of value, and a Christian band must constitute a group of Christians.
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Unread 06-11-2002, 02:11 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
If that argument is followed to it's logical conclusion in this setting, only anything made/written/said by Christians is of value, since apparently only Christian bands are of value, and a Christian band must constitute a group of Christians.
Now, Scott, you know how it is with me. I don't take it to its 'logical conclusion'. If it's good music, I'm there, regardless of what it is. If it's satanic, that's too bad, I can't buy their album. Will I let their music, if it is good, influence my work? Certainly. Will I let their beliefs influence mine? Of course not. With Christian and secular music, there's good and bad from both. I'm not going to say, "Oh, that's Christian/secular, it can't be good". Same goes for the other way around.

You see where I'm coming from?
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<table><tr><td><IMG SRC="http://www.opeth.com/various/images/promo99/tistel.jpg" WIDTH="263" HEIGHT="194"></td><td><font size=1>Well I threw you the obvious,
Just to see if there's more behind the
Eyes of a fallen angel,
Eyes of a tragedy...

A-ramble on, and now's the time, the time is now
Sing my song, I'm goin' 'round the world, I gotta find my girl
On my way, I've been this way ten years to the day
Ramble on, gotta find the queen of all my dreams...

</font></td></tr></table>
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Unread 06-11-2002, 04:13 PM   #103
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Yeah, I know how you stand on this man, just using your points to outline my arguments. I should've said that more clearly, sorry.
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Unread 06-11-2002, 04:50 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Yeah, I know how you stand on this man, just using your points to outline my arguments. I should've said that more clearly, sorry.
No problem.

Just don't let it happen again
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<table><tr><td><IMG SRC="http://www.opeth.com/various/images/promo99/tistel.jpg" WIDTH="263" HEIGHT="194"></td><td><font size=1>Well I threw you the obvious,
Just to see if there's more behind the
Eyes of a fallen angel,
Eyes of a tragedy...

A-ramble on, and now's the time, the time is now
Sing my song, I'm goin' 'round the world, I gotta find my girl
On my way, I've been this way ten years to the day
Ramble on, gotta find the queen of all my dreams...

</font></td></tr></table>
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Unread 06-11-2002, 05:06 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by slimjimtoejam

Who thinks that we have to listen to secular music to effectively witness to people and bring them to God?
I think that is me your referring too, but like another individual, you have missed my [perhaps unclear] point. Secular music cannot be used to effectively witness to people and bring them to God. If it doesn't have the salvation message, then it's not witnessing. What it does for You, is it provides a tool for you to get into their world, to understand them, and to better relate to and hopefully witness to them. If you read my other posts, hopefully you'll understand. Thanks!

Charlie
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