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View Poll Results: Should you listen to secular music?
It's not really a big deal 155 64.58%
No, you should not listen to secular music 44 18.33%
You should listen to Secular Music 41 17.08%
Voters: 240. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 06-04-2002, 02:38 PM   #61
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I know this is a really touchy subject because of all the different beliefs on this subject but here is my personal opinion. I personally do not listen to secular music. I think you just have to ask yourself WWJD, i think its that simple. You sit down and start listening to something just think to yourself , if Jesus was here right with me would he listen to this music and not have a problem with it at all? Secular music and Christian is very different just because of their motives. Basically all secular musicians motives are to glorify themselves but Christian music is to glorify God. If anyone thinks though that it is good to listen to secular music though because it helps you determine right and wrong and things like that there really is no need. I mean if you say that it is like saying im going to see an R rated movie so i will know how not to act and I will learn from the wrong and the bad language and never do it..that kind of philosophy is wrong in my opinion. I just stay away from secular music because it can really negatively affect someones life. I do understand that secular musicians are generally better than Christian musicians but there are still very good Christian artists like JOC, jennifer knapp, and switchfoot and you dont need to listen to secular music..this is just my opinion.

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Unread 06-04-2002, 02:54 PM   #62
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[me]well just how does someone commit spiritual adultery??.............i can't see any other way but by whoring after the things of the world and yes the line is kinda blurred tween secular and christian and there is lots more christian music that i pass on than what i listen to
Where did I say that I was "whoring after the things of the world?" I said no such thing, nor did I imply it. Secular music becomes an entirely different thing when it is put into the context of Christianity. We look at it very differently, in light of its presuppositional worth and its beauty. The same goes for books that are written by non-Christians. The same goes for art that is created by non-Christians. Your position is absurd, because if we are not to "whore after the things of the world", according to your definition, then we must reject completely anything that pagans have created. Not once have I said in any of my posts that I endorse whole-heartedly the message of secular music (although, in some instances, they have more to say about life than most Christian artists). I have merely examined the issues surrounding secular music and its relevance to Christianity.

My post on that topic, by the way, was not refuted by you. You thought you could whip out a couple of quick Bible verses that would defeat my position, but, in fact, they had nothing to say against my topic because I do not endorse the message of secular music. I can enjoy the intellect of David Hume when I read his books. I can enjoy the wit and genius of Neitchze when I browse through his works. Do I endorse their attacks on Christianity? No. Do I enjoy there insights into the realm of human nature? Yes. In the same way, I can enjoy the artistic beauty of secular music (some of it, not all), examine their worldviews, and take them to the context of Christianity.

God has given us art to enjoy. God's glory is so amazing that it is not and cannot be absent from the structure of reality. Throughout the history of the world and the history of philosophy, He has used pagans to show us His glory. Did he not use even the wicked Babylonians to accomplish His will? Did he not use Pilate to bring about the crucifixion of Christ (and our redemption)? In the same way, as I explained in more detail in my earlier post, God uses secular music to show us His glory and gives us the minds and hearts to not endorse, but tear down everything that exalts itself against Christ.

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i don't expact you to agree, so like i said don't expect me to show proof.............but i think if everything i said was proven you would have to call it spiritual adultry
Your whole argument now rests on a big "if" fallacy. You haven't proven anything, as Luke has said. You just want it to. Therefore, your argument must hinge on "if", because you have no objective solution to the problem.

In addition, your whole post was an autobiography about yourself. You just told us more about you and your personal life rather than explaining why listening to secular music is bad.

You argument was not that much different from an atheist who says he is perfectly justified in his denial of God because his mother died in a Nazi death camp (William Tabash, in case you were wondering). His personal grief has no bearing on whether or not God does or does not exist. Thus, a mere autobiography, like your whole line of reasoning. If subjective experience can prove something objectively, then show us.
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Unread 06-04-2002, 03:06 PM   #63
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[me]oh i know not in your eyes, that's why i said what i did but to me there's proof beyond a shadow of a doubt...........i did post the scriptures though and i have proved as much in the direction i am going as the ones going in the other direction...................BTW luke just out of curiosity what would you consider to be spiritual adultary, i mean just a couple of examples that apply to us today............not just general terms............and in your opinion just how much of the things of the world should we hold on to (or do we get to choose) in view of the scriptures that speak of such things..................it's like saying ok Lord i'm all yours except this area right here, you need to stay away from that cuz i intead to hang on to it
If it just seems like that way to you, then don't bother telling us. At this point you are only proving things to yourself, because "that's the way I see them". I have yet to hear from you any objective reasoning that states why I can't listen to secular music, and why I am "whoring after the world."

If you argue that Scripture goes against what I am saying, then explain how it does. The fact is, it doesn't, but I have yet to see you show me how it does. You can't merely thump your Bible at me and tell me its wrong. Show how those verses apply to my understanding of secular music. Remember, my understanding.

Spiritual adultery, as I see it, is accepting wholeheartedly the things of the world. Have I done this? Everyone paying close attention to my posts will reason "no." If I have, please show me (then at last and at least you will be forced to pay attention to my actual focus).


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[me]ok...........as i see it the bible is full of scripture that apply to secular music and if all people here are just babes in Christ then that's another thing to............but my take on it is most folks here are gonna at least be in some sort of leadership position in the body if not ordained ministers, so i'm not talking to some delicate new christians that don't know if the are washing or hanging out..............to me it's very "Pharisetical" to always hunt some loophole or study the bible just to try and justify some questionable lifestyle or action
Once again, you are throwing the "Pharisee" word around again without justifying your use of it.
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Unread 06-04-2002, 05:33 PM   #64
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how dare you ask for logic....
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Unread 06-04-2002, 05:36 PM   #65
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You are right Scott. That is, I suppose, too much to ask nowadays.
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Unread 06-04-2002, 06:19 PM   #66
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At least be considerate to others Adam
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Unread 06-04-2002, 07:39 PM   #67
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Well, I guess it's my turn to jump into this discussion, as a Christian listener of secular music.

First, I would ask anyone who believes that listening to secular music to be wrong to be consistent with these beliefs and not subject themselves to a double standard. I'm not referring to anyone here, because I don't anything about you beyond what I've read on this board. But my experience with Christians who believe secular music is wrong has shown that they believe secular popular music is wrong, but I have yet to hear one of these people condemn secular classical music. They generally have two arguments against secular popular music: the sinfulness of the artist's lifestyles and the "filthyness" of the lyrics. Let me address these two issues and show how they apply to classical just as much as popular music:

1. Sinfulness of the artist's lifestyles. As wicked as the "sex, drugs and rock'n'roll" lifestyle is, this has been going on among classical composers for centuries. There are certainly exceptions (such as Bach, who was a very devout Christian), but there are are many composers who lives are just as bad as today's artists. For instance, Mozart lived a lifestyle or promiscuity, drinking, partying, gambling, etc (you can learn all about it if you watch Amadeus). As bad as Mozart was, it's hard to match the life of Richard Wagner. Wagner had affairs and was known as a complete arrogant jerk. He believed he was going to be mankind's savior through his Gesamtkunstwerk (a synthesis of all the arts). Ultimately, Wagner was a major influence on Adolf Hitler. Other composers were like this, too - such as Tchaikovsky, who was a homosexual.

2. "Filthyness" of the lyrics. Look no further than Mozart's Madamino, Il catalogo e questo from Don Giovanni for an example. In it, the character Don Giovanni gives a descriptive catalogue of all the women he has seduced. Sounds pretty filthy if you ask me.

My point here is not to suggest that we shouldn't listen to classical music, because I believe we should. But the insinuation has been made that any music which is "secular" will corrupt the Christian, and I think we all probably know Christians who enjoy and are not corrupted by Mozart, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, etc. I, for one, absolutely love the Nutcracker Ballet, as I imagine a number of people here do.

So, if you're going to condemn secular music as being sinful to listen to, please be consistent. You better not sing "Happy Birthday" or our national anthem, because those aren't Christian songs.

My personal stance on this issue is that secular music in and of itself is not wrong. Music which neither glorifies or dishonors God is not wrong in and of itself. There's nothing wrong with writing music that doesn't mention God, just like the book of Esther was inspired without mentioning God in it. I believe we should use discernment in what we listen to, just like we use discernment in what we watch or read. Yes, many secular artists are dishonoring to God. So don't listen to it. But there is also secular music out there that doesn't dishonor God. As a Christian, I see it as a tribute to our creator that such wonderful art is possible. Good music uplifts my soul and edifies me. If you are looking for some secular artists to listen to that don't dishonor God, then I've got a few suggestions for you:

- Nickel Creek
- Stevie Ray Vaughan. I have yet to hear of a Christian artist who has made as much of the tangible positive difference in people's lives that SRV made.
- Jesse Cook.
- Gypsy Kings.
- Bob Marley.
- Santana.
- Dream Theater.

There are many more, but my point is that secular music doesn't inherrantly dishonor God; sinful people do. We've just got to be discerning in what we listen to.

Somebody insinuated that the motivation of all Christian artists is to glorify God, and that the point of all secular artists is to glorify themselves. I don't believe this is always true. I think there are many Christian artists who are trying to glorify themselves. Simply being in the Christian music industry doesn't protect us from our sinful nature that wants to glorify ourselves.

I think there can be an inherrant danger to listening to only Christian music. Sometimes I find that Christian music simply confirms the status quo in my life. Often times, it doesn't challenge me to live radically for Christ. I think the secular world has valid things to say that we as Christians shouldn't shut out. The Christian subculture sometimes tends to serve ourselves rather than serving God.

Sorry about organizing this so incoherrantly, but I had a lot of different points I wanted to make. Feel free to disagree, just please back up your disagreement with valid support.
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Unread 06-04-2002, 08:01 PM   #68
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Wow, excellent post R2D2. Your point about classical music is especially important. I suppose we may add classical music to the long list of things I have talked about that we may have to dispose of according to boogeray's proposition.
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Unread 06-04-2002, 08:02 PM   #69
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At least be considerate to others Adam
You are right, and perhaps that is something I have not done as well as I should have. Thank you for your reminder.
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Unread 06-04-2002, 08:40 PM   #70
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Well, I really have nothing new to add to this debate, I pretty much agree with the pro-secular people in the opinion that secular music is art and should be taken as such and used to glorify our creator. I also stick close to the opinion that a christian should be VERY discerning in everything they do, especially something as powerful as music. So why did I post you ask, to offer a summary of all the points of the pro-secular music folks?? No, of course not, it was to sing a few lines of the house plant song

Once I read a book, and this is what it said, if your music has a beat, than your gonna wind up dead, and this book was called, HA! your gonna burn, and in the second chapter i went on to learn

Take two houseplants and put them to the test, put them both in front of speakers and let the music do the rest

Ok, I'd say that's enough, well wasn't that fun. What is that you say?? You say that was useless?? Well i apologize for wasting the valuable time of others. BWHAHAHA
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Unread 06-04-2002, 08:44 PM   #71
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I am not a guest as my prior post shows. How dare it insult me in such a manner
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Unread 06-05-2002, 07:40 AM   #72
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some more "bible thumping" for those who asked for scripture.............some of you need to duck

Psalm 101
3I will set no base or wicked thing before my eyes. I hate the work of them who turn aside [from the right path]; it shall not grasp hold of me.
4A perverse heart shall depart from me; I will know no evil person or thing.

Matthew 10
38And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

John 17
14I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

Acts 14
11And the crowds, when they saw what Paul had done, lifted up their voices, shouting in the Lycaonian language, The gods have come down to us in human form!
12They called Barnabas Zeus, and they called Paul, because he led in the discourse, Hermes [god of speech].
13And the priest of Zeus, whose [temple] was at the entrance of the town, brought bulls and garlands to the [city's] gates and wanted to join the people in offering sacrifice.
14But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their clothing and dashed out among the crowd, shouting,
15Men, why are you doing this? We also are [only] human beings, of nature like your own, and we bring you the good news (Gospel) that you should turn away from these foolish and vain things to the living God, Who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything that they contain.(1)

Romans 12
9[Let your] love be sincere (a real thing); hate what is evil [loathe all ungodliness, turn in horror from wickedness], but hold fast to that which is good.

Ephesians 2
1AND YOU [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins
2In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God].
3Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God's] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.

1 Thessalonians 4
3For this is the will of God, that you should be consecrated (separated and set apart for pure and holy living): that you should abstain and shrink from all sexual vice,
4That each one of you should know how to [3] possess (control, manage) his own [4] body in consecration (purity, separated from things profane) and honor,
5Not [to be used] in the passion of lust like the heathen, who are ignorant of the true God and have no knowledge of His will,
6That no man transgress and overreach his brother and defraud him in this matter or defraud his brother in business. For the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we have already warned you solemnly and [5] told you plainly.
7For God has not called us to impurity but to consecration [to dedicate ourselves to the most thorough purity].

Philippians 4
8For the rest, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them].

and some scripture that i posted somewhere else in this string

James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

James 4
4Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.
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Unread 06-05-2002, 10:45 AM   #73
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Psalm 101
3I will set no base or wicked thing before my eyes. I hate the work of them who turn aside [from the right path]; it shall not grasp hold of me.
4A perverse heart shall depart from me; I will know no evil person or thing.

Matthew 10
38And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Romans 12
9[Let your] love be sincere (a real thing); hate what is evil [loathe all ungodliness, turn in horror from wickedness], but hold fast to that which is good.

Ephesians 2
1AND YOU [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins
2In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God].
3Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God's] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.

1 Thessalonians 4
3For this is the will of God, that you should be consecrated (separated and set apart for pure and holy living): that you should abstain and shrink from all sexual vice,
4That each one of you should know how to [3] possess (control, manage) his own [4] body in consecration (purity, separated from things profane) and honor,
5Not [to be used] in the passion of lust like the heathen, who are ignorant of the true God and have no knowledge of His will,
6That no man transgress and overreach his brother and defraud him in this matter or defraud his brother in business. For the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we have already warned you solemnly and [5] told you plainly.
7For God has not called us to impurity but to consecration [to dedicate ourselves to the most thorough purity].

Philippians 4
8For the rest, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them].

(Luke)
All of these passages refer to doing and setting your mind on things that are right and good. However, a sufficient case has not been made that all secular music does not fall into this category, and thus these passages go on the table of irrelevant to this discussion. Also bear in mind that nobody is advocating all secular music--all of us would candidly admit that there is secular music that is negative and that Christians should avoid. That is not the issue up for discussion.

And, side notes:
1. What translation are you using? I've never seen more parenthesis or square brackets in a quote ever...
2. Ephesians 2 sounds quite Calvinistic.

(boogeray)
John 17
14I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

Acts 14
11And the crowds, when they saw what Paul had done, lifted up their voices, shouting in the Lycaonian language, The gods have come down to us in human form!
12They called Barnabas Zeus, and they called Paul, because he led in the discourse, Hermes [god of speech].
13And the priest of Zeus, whose [temple] was at the entrance of the town, brought bulls and garlands to the [city's] gates and wanted to join the people in offering sacrifice.
14But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their clothing and dashed out among the crowd, shouting,
15Men, why are you doing this? We also are [only] human beings, of nature like your own, and we bring you the good news (Gospel) that you should turn away from these foolish and vain things to the living God, Who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything that they contain.(1)

(Luke)
May I also add Genesis 15:7 to the list. How is Genesis 15:7 relevant you ask? Exactly! It isn't, just like the above...

(boogeray)
James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

James 4
4Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

(Luke)
Your argument with these passages presupposes that listening to secular music is to befriend worldly lusts, which is not necessarily the case. Certainly it could be, but it isn't necessarily.

(boogeray)
1 John 2
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.

(Luke)
This presupposes that liking some secular music is "loving the world" in the context of this passage (e.g. over loving God). This is also an invalid presupposition to make for your case.
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Unread 06-05-2002, 10:47 AM   #74
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boogeray:
The Pharisees in Christ's time were adding to the Law, so to say something is "Pharisetical" is to say that it is an addition, not a subtraction as your definition requires.
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Unread 06-05-2002, 10:58 AM   #75
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Once again, I will politely say that boogeray has missapplied Scripture. He has not yet shown how it applies to mine and others views on secular music.
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