[Basszilla]

Originally posted by The Philosopher

First, it does us Christians good to learn from the false philosophical systems of those who would set their own humanistic standards to the epistemological standards of Christ. We must recognize the unbelieving presuppositions of secular bands in order to counter them with the only true presupposition-Scripture. Doing this strengthens our faith and gives us further assurance of the Bible's veracity.

I agree with the point you're making, but do you really have to listen to them to learn about their philosophy? Couldn't you just read their lyrics online or something?

Basically what I'm asking is whether there is any advantage to listening rather than simply reading.

[Scott]

Because if we want to subvert the methods "secular" music uses for Christian means, then we must understand them intimately. Otherwise we end up with half hearted attempts, for example, 90% of "Christian" music.

[Basszilla]

Originally posted by Scott
Because if we want to subvert the methods "secular" music uses for Christian means, then we must understand them intimately. Otherwise we end up with half hearted attempts, for example, 90% of "Christian" music.

That makes sense. I probably should have spent a little time thinking about it before I posted.

[Adam]

Because if we want to subvert the methods "secular" music uses for Christian means, then we must understand them intimately. Otherwise we end up with half hearted attempts, for example, 90% of "Christian" music.

Exactly.

[boogeray]

[The Philosopher]Why Listening to Secular Music Is Not Wrong

First, it does us Christians good to learn from the false philosophical systems of those who would set their own humanistic standards to the epistemological standards of Christ. We must recognize the unbelieving presuppositions of secular bands in order to counter them with the only true presupposition-Scripture. Doing this strengthens our faith and gives us further assurance of the Bible's veracity.

Secondly, we must always know what happens in our postmodern culture in order to effectively cast down constant opposition to Christianity. We know a great deal about unbelieving presuppositions through modern music, and Christians must always be aware of these dangerous ideas so that they may be countered.

Thirdly, we may use the creative musical techniques and intuition that secular musicians employ to give them true meaning under a distinctly Christian worldview. That is, use what man intended for evil to bring glory to God. An analogy to this would be the Israelites using the gold of the pagan Egyptians and out of it creating a temple pleasing to God.

Furthermore, we Christians can make better music by doing this, in singing about the philosophical consequences of unbelieving thought, presenting the Bible as the only true presupposition that gives meaning to our experience, and overall creating a better sound instead of singing again and again about how God loves each and everyone of us (not a bad thing, mind you). Musically speaking, we need to move outside the lines of modern confines and just create, in short, something epic.

[me]you have listed several excuses for listening to secular music but i see nothing at all in what you wrote that says there is nothing wrong with it.................at one time secular music was my life as was partying, drinking, doing all kinds of drugs and having as much sex as i could............secular music is so powerful and plays such a major role in the lifestyle i just mentioned..............i can't understand how any christian can justify it.................listening to secular music is like commiting spiritual fornication...............we are the bride of Christ, why would we by any means want to keep up the affair we are having with the world

James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

James 4
4Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.

[jguitarfreak]

Well said boogeray. I don't think that listening to secular music is really bad. I think it becomes an issue when we listen to bands with questionable or profane songs it becomes an issue.

[TomfromIllinois]

I think that as a christian you should not listen to secular music, I do not listen to it and I don't watch television either and I still hear all kinds of crap that would make a person think about their faith in jesus christ. One does not need to listen to secular music or watch television to hear people trash talk about jesus or christians or just talk/sing about immoral things. GARBAGE IN = GARBAGE OUT

[Scott]

I still hear all kinds of crap that would make a person think about their faith in jesus christ

two points, please capitalise Jesus' name, He deserves that much respect surely, the shift key isn't that hard to find.

Second, we certainly wouldn't want anyone actually thinking about their faith now would we? No, blind following is much better, isn't it?

you have listed several excuses for listening to secular music but i see nothing at all in what you wrote that says there is nothing wrong with it

Would you try to reach a drug addict without knowing what they were going through? Would you try to council anyone without understanding their situation?

The same applies, we need to endure the shaky morals of the music for two reasons, one to subvert the musicianship to provide good alternatives for Christians, and secondly to be able to provide a relevant outreach to those who hold these beliefs. If you aren't strong enough in your faith to listen to this, to make this investment, you should steer clear. As with anything.

[boogeray]

[scott]Would you try to reach a drug addict without knowing what they were going through? Would you try to council anyone without understanding their situation?

The same applies, we need to endure the shaky morals of the music for two reasons, one to subvert the musicianship to provide good alternatives for Christians,

[me]so are you saying you need to get down and wallow in the muck to reach these folks??.............and how does lsitening to secular music in anyway train a person for ministering to druggies or any other lost person..........and are you saying that the extent of your listening to secular music is strictly for training purposes, learning how to minister and play more skillfully?.............give me a break

[scott]and secondly to be able to provide a relevant outreach to those who hold these beliefs. If you aren't strong enough in your faith to listen to this, to make this investment, you should steer clear. As with anything.

[me]it has nothing to do with strength but with stupidity...........when a christian gains some ground in whatever area it would be stupid to go back and dabble with it...............i guess if i was strong enuff in my faith i could go back to strip joints too HUH?

Luke 9
62Jesus said to him, No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back [to the things behind] is fit for the kingdom of God.

[fifsuperpod37]

[scott]Would you try to reach a drug addict without knowing what they were going through? Would you try to council anyone without understanding their situation?

The same applies, we need to endure the shaky morals of the music for two reasons, one to subvert the musicianship to provide good alternatives for Christians,

Me: I used to listen to secular music on the radio but I never bought any of it, I would just buy Christian CDs. However, I realized that the radio was not worth listening to. A lot of secular music is good, but the lyrics are not. Bands like Hoobastank and Linkin Park express emptiness and so Christians will say "Look, these bands are talking about spiritual things, now I have an excuse to listen to them." But these songs, although they have interesting elements of truth seeking, don't have answers in them. They just whine about how they can't find answers. We don't need to put ourselves through this to see what kind of music the secular world is making so we can imitate it. As Christians, knowing where our creativity comes from, we should be able to write good music without just copying the secular market. And why do we need to listen to secular music to know what people are going through. Why don't we just talk to them and find out that way. I'm not saying that it is a sin to listen to secular music, but you should definitely not subject yourself to too much of it, unless of course, you're listening to something with nothing wrong in it. Music like that is very hard to find today.

[Mrstickball]

Here are some reason's I personally listen to secular music....Mind you, I do not listen to all of it (IE, any profane lyrics).


As a guitar player, if I just listened to Christian music, I would not be able to innovate and notice the originality of the musicians. In fact, I've only listened to one Christian band (Stryper) that has had ANY relevance to my guitar playing. If I was to listen to 100% Christian music, I would sound inbred and be a bad guitarist. I hate to say it, but most Christian bands just plain stink......You can argue this point, but pound for pound, there are more skilled unsaved guitarists than saved.....And when the guitar (in my opinion) reached its most creative point during the 60s, 70s, and early 80s, CHRISTIANS were the ones attacking it and saying its of the devil.

Because of that....I am nearly forced to listen to secular music because Christians couldn't get the guts up to start giving us good alternatives 40, 30, and 20 years ago.

Another point, how do you deem something secular? The message or the person?

If its because the person is/is not living right, we could justify singing about alot of different things Christians really aren't singing about......Look at what Solomon sings about in Song Of Solomon........Some of its pretty discriptive...Because of this, I do not see anything wrong with myself listening to love songs, breakup songs, or just songs about how life can be as long as I listen to it from a Christian standpoint (IE, listening to a 70s band and noting that many of thier tragic songs are due to the fact they were drug addicts, and such).

Now, I would say that some Christians shouldn't listen to secular music because it could prevert thier mind into thinking wrong things.

I believe someone said garbage in, garbage out.....

I'd like to argue this point.

My music preferances range quite a bit.......Anywhere from Beethoven to Black Sabbath.........Yes, I listen to them.

Just because I listen to a band that did dabble in the occult, does that make me an occultist as well?

I believe not.

What kind of music do I produce?

I do praise and worship for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...
I am also going to be in a Christian band soon, and I hope to see people saved.

Another thing I'd point out is Stryper, one of the first Christian bands out there. Goto stryper.com and see who thier musical roots were by looking at thier first albums, KISS, Sabbath, ect......

Now here's a question........

Did they produce garbage out?

They were the FIRST Christian to recieve attention from the secular world in a large way. I was watching VH-1 one day, and on thier top 40 hair bands of the 80s, they got 27. VH-1 did not bash thier Christianity, but actually complemented them by noting that they were professed Christians that we very skilled musicians, and to take a look at them. 5 million people bought thier albums.......Thats 5 million people that heard the message that Jesus loves you..........Did thier garbage in produce garbage out?

[boogeray]

talkin bout musical roots.............i got'um too, it's just that there is a new plant growing now

[Adam]

[me]you have listed several excuses for listening to secular music but i see nothing at all in what you wrote that says there is nothing wrong with it.................at one time secular music was my life as was partying, drinking, doing all kinds of drugs and having as much sex as i could............secular music is so powerful and plays such a major role in the lifestyle i just mentioned..............i can't understand how any christian can justify it.................listening to secular music is like commiting spiritual fornication...............we are the bride of Christ, why would we by any means want to keep up the affair we are having with the world

First, they are not really "excuses", but reasons I listen to secular music. I believe secular music has been used in a wrong way by unbelieving musicians-but that doesn't mean I have an anti-intellectual attitude and dismiss it. Rather, I take advantage of what people use for evil, and I use it for good-examining unbelieving presuppositions, refuting them, and enjoying the musical beauty that God has even granted to those who deny Him. Is that not one of the glories of our Creator? That we may observe His glory even through those who are opposed to Christ. Once again, God's glory is not absent from even the minutest detail of existence (Romans 1), and it is ignorance for us to ignore it.

I understand that you have led an unbelieveing life before, and have listened to secular music. But don't think that your individual experience with it justifies it's "wrongness". You have written an autobiography about yourself, and nothing more. Your experience has no bearing on whether or not secular music is good or evil.

Furthermore, if we are to take your reasoning to it's logical conclusion, we will have to stay away from all the great books and the writings of those who have developed Western Civilization. Apparently, then, you will have to start learning all over again. Good luck.

There are many secular classical musicians who have created timeless masterpieces. Should we reject that too? Just how much history and thinking do we want to erase here?

What about the philosophies of such great Christian men as Augustine and Thomas Aquinas? They took what the autonomous mind of man created (Platonic and Aristotelian thought) and converted it into submission to Christ. Well, I guess we will just have to deny them as well.

What about mathematics? Men such as Pythagoras and Euclid discovered amazing insights into the reality of nature through their studies, yet they were still unbelieving. I guess the foundations of mathematics will have to be destroyed as well.

Even in the Bible, the apostle Paul had read from many Greek poets and philosophers of his day, in order to cast down every lofty thing that exalts itself to the knowledge of Christ. He was what we call "culturally aware." Paul encourages us to be culturally aware and not shy away from the world. We are to take the pagan gold of this world and submit it to the glorious temple of Christ. Paul realized this.

The Bride of Christ is not only a sanctuary. It is God's Armory, where we prepare for battle against the world, in order that we may fulfill God's calling to take dominion over this earth, and spread the knowledge of God to all nations, so that His enemies will become a footstool for His feet, and that the knowledge of God may cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. The gates of hell will not prevail, and that includes us destroying what the pagans have made and exalting it to Christ's Lordship.

"James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."


Of course. We preach Christ without compromise, and to do this, we must show the pagans where their error lies. That includes listening to secular music.


Looking over the rest of the verses, you have just assumed that I encouraged us to be of the world. An a priori assumption that you have failed to justify. You need to read my posts over again and see where I either a) implicitly assumed this or b) explicitly stated it. I agree with all the verses offered. You need to show me how they apply to my case.

[jguitarfreak]

As a guitar player, if I just listened to Christian music, I would not be able to innovate and notice the originality of the musicians. In fact, I've only listened to one Christian band (Stryper) that has had ANY relevance to my guitar playing. If I was to listen to 100% Christian music, I would sound inbred and be a bad guitarist. I hate to say it, but most Christian bands just plain stink......You can argue this point, but pound for pound, there are more skilled unsaved guitarists than saved.....And when the guitar (in my opinion) reached its most creative point during the 60s, 70s, and early 80s, CHRISTIANS were the ones attacking it and saying its of the devil.

Ok, first of all not all christian bands stink. Guitarists like lincoln brewster, phil keaggy, steven curtis chapman, scott dente and numerous others are all pretty good and are not secular. I agree with you that about half of the christian groups aint that great, but so are alot of secular.

[Scott]

I agree with you that about half of the christian groups aint that great, but so are alot of secular.

Yes, but NO "Christian" bands reach the creative heights that "secular" bands do. I've looked and I've asked, there aren't any. This is because they sell simply because of a Christian sticker on the front. They don't have to try.