[danielbebawi]

rock_show_host, danielbebawi is speaking from a devotional standpoint - his abstinence is an act of worship. If his conscience is telling him not to listen to any secular music, it's not for YOU to say that it's wrong. Be instructed by 1 Cor. 10:23-33 - don't let your freedom cause your brother to stumble.

Thank you tapslore, that's exactly what i meant. and I'm sorry rock_show_host i didnt mean what you mentioned, i just wanted to clear my point.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by danielbebawi

Thank you tapslore, that's exactly what i meant. and I'm sorry rock_show_host i didnt mean what you mentioned, i just wanted to clear my point.

No problem

[Skeeter]

Originally Posted by danielbebawi

I believe that part of devoting yourself to God is not to listen to secular music as every music that we hear around us have a spirit and a message, if there's a 1% probability that I can be affected by the spirit and the message of secular music, i would rather not listen to it

I believe differently. As long as neither one of us starts insisting that the other is sinning, I think we'll be okay.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by tapslore

To clarify:
secular = of the world
christian = of God

Says who?

Scripture does not make this distinction at all. Jesus Christ was far more secular than "christian" by this definition, because he was very clearly a man who hung out with the dregs of society.

I agree that there is certain music that is marketed as Christian but is actually deeply flawed. When I mean "Christian music", I mean music that feeds the Church and is consistent with the written word of God.

And a great deal of megadeth, social distortion, and a ton of other bands would qualify by this definition.

Ex. "Hosanna" by Hillsong is Christian Music. "Cowboys From Hell" by Pantera is Secular Music. "Hosanna" is permanently on my ipod's playlist, "Cowboys From Hell" magically gets on there when I'm feeling distinctly un-Christian. There's no gray area there.

Okay... Wagner? Christian or no? (If you are unfamiliar, I suggest a listen, most of the music discussed has been modern, but classical has its believers and hedonists as well)




Actually Wagner's operas are pagan in the extreme. However, I will admit to liking Ride of the Valkyries. As an instrumental piece of music it is quite cool. You can find examples of music that is bad. I submit most of Amon Amarth's catalog as music I find lyrically horrific. (Pagan, anti-christian, and patently idolatrous)

I use the terms "Christian" and "Secular" in their absolute sense (see above), not the baggage-ridden, if-it's-in-a-christian-bookstores-does-that-make-it-Christian, debate-filled sense.

No, actually, you made up new definitions for them to add another layer of mud to the waters. The term secular gets a bum rap. Honda is by most people's definitions a "secular" company. Is working for Honda immoral? Wrong? Of course not.

I have worked for "christian" companies and "secular" and frankly, I have universally been treated better at the "secular."

And Jesus was himself a man who worked manual, secular labor of the world, hung out with sinners and was a very, very secular man if you come right down to it. So I take offense that secular, or just being a part of the normal world is bad, in that God made flesh was not too holy for that.

If you want to call it "Holy" vs. "Unholy" music, be my guest. Same banana to me.

Not even close.

We are called to be people in the world and one of the greatest weaknesses of Christianity is that the light fears the darkness rather than shines in it. The salt does not preserve our society because the salt is hiding from the flesh it was put there to preserve and effect a change in.

Secular doesn't mean morally objectionable. It really just means normal. There is music that taunts our Lord and God. I find that blasphemous and a very big deal.

Is it always wrong to listen to blasphemous material? I wouldn't say so. When doing youth work, I gave listens to what the kids liked routinely to see where they were at. Some of it was disgusting to be blunt.

Frankly, what you're talking about is going beyond the bounds of a simple discussion on what music is good for Christians to listen to. You speak of Hypocrisy in the Christian Music industry, which I know nothing about.

Okay, dove nominated band, repeatedly denies the existence of Hell, and espouses universalism. Major recording artists get passes when they cheat on their wives, have affairs, etc. The so called "christian" music scene is a false dichotomy. It is in a sense selling based on the safeness of the music and that listening to it as opposed to secular makes you more holy than those who don't. That is not discernment, but feeding self-righteousness at the expense of turning the cross into a marketing slogan.

I suggest listening to Five Iron Frenzy's Blue Mix for a rather interesting perspective.

As a guitarist for a Kids' Church ministry in the Philippines, I don't have the luxury of knowing the backstory behind every mp3 I hear. I can only read the lyrics, listen to the recording, and draw a conclusion if it's worth learning by seeing if it's consistent with the Bible or not.

Which may or may not be "christian." And a lot of bands that would get panned as secular, I have actually met some members that actually I look up to as believers who stand out as fierce lights in very dark places.

These extra issues aside, my main point has always been DISCERN, BE MINDFUL of what you listen to, because it DOES affect you. One cannot listen to a worldly message all day and night and expect NOT to be affected.

What is this worldly message? Most of the music I like actually tends to tell stories mostly. And, let's say, a song about a revolt that occurred in a decisive battle... it tends to be fine. All things are not hosanna/cowboys from Hell.

[pnkpricess059]

It was a big problem for me at first, because I was/am into a lot of hard rock and metal. Now, I have been trying to use discernment and reading the lyrics before getting back into some bands. (Phillippians 4:8) I realize that just because something is secular doesn't mean it's evil and we shouldn't brand all secular music as such.

[phaze7486]

Honestly i think it depends on the person, if you have a tolerance for it and you don't let it influence you then i don't think it matters. But if you are the kind of person who tends to be influenced easy then i think you should only listen to secular music that has a good message. For example, i used to listen to rap music all the time, but then i noticed i started cussing a lot, so i stopped listening to rap music that cussed, or i would get the censored version of the song. I was influenced by the music. Also sometimes God can let you know when you shouldn't be listening to certain bands. For example i started getting into Slipknot, then one day I was listening to one of there songs (i can't remember which one it was) and i closed my eyes for a split second, and no joke i had an out of body experience. I was like an out of body vision kind of, i saw myself in the future leaning on a street corner in the fetal position and shaking vigorously. It wasn't a normal vision because it felt like i was out of my body and looking down watching myself. After that day i have never listened to Slipknot, and i threw out all my slipknot cds. So that is one way God can show you, of course some signs are more subtle then my experience but either way God sort of slapped me in the face that day.

[AndrewZealand]

A devout christian might not feel he was missing anything by avoiding secular music, because differences in christian and secular music are more subtle these days. And he might not want to risk listening to secular music for fear that it will disrupt the life he is happy with. And to be fair, when you are living under strict rules, walking the narrow path, it's easy to be knocked off course.

On the other hand, a secular person these days is happier to include a few CDs of christian bands in their collection. I also think that in the past 10 years there have probably been more "private christians" than ever before. That is, people who appreciate Christ, seperate from a conventional church and especially through listening to modern christian rock. I think these people are more at ease, listening to a wide variety of music.

At best, I'm a private christian, certainly not a devout church-member or Bible-studier. I listen to christian music and while I generally find it less satisfying than secular music, I accept that most christian songwriters are caught between serving their church and serving their own desires. Their writings can often seem a little standardized. To be fair, that also occurs in secular music, when a band is encouraged by their record company to just write something that people in general will like so that they're assured to make money from it. However, I think that outside of the church, people are more encouraged to just write their songs from the heart. I think that possibly, not since the 70s, have christian musicians truely sounded like they are singing from the heart. Larry Norman, called the father of contemporary christian music by some, was a man of unique faith and he sounded like he was singing from the heart as did his disciple Randy Stonehill. People like Mark Heard, Phil Keaggy, Chuck Girard and The Talbot Brothers were the same. They did the more soulful thing. For all I know, maybe ALL music from the 70s was more soulful and "from the heart" sounding than music of today though.
As for "christian" artists like U2.....I'm not a fan of U2, but there are similar groups I like....Midnight Oil, Big Country, Bruce Cockburn to name a few.

[Suzuki]

I have three perspectives on this:

One, from a growing musician's perspective. If a growing musician listens exclusively to Christian music, s/he will not grow as a musician. Anyone who wants to become a musician must learn to appreciate all forms of music, and honestly, most Christian music is fairly basic and doesn't take a whole lot of skill to play (depending on the instrument). Without listening to other music, a Christian guitarist wouldn't be inspired to create a solo. A Christian bassist wouldn't be inspired to create a bassline. Which can then turn into an argument of "a guitarist shouldn't be shredding in Church", to which would reply, "God gave him that talent, so he should use it to praise God. That's why God gave him that talent in the first place."

Second, from a foreign-language learner's perspective. I listen to a lot of Japanese music to keep my ear accustomed to Japanese. Japan has a Christian population of less than 1%, so needless to say their music is going to be secular. If I only listened to Christian music, I would lose much of my language ability, which I need for a future career.

Third, from a logical human perspective. There is a lot more in the world than Christianity and Christian music. Sure not all of it is good and pure, but there is a lot of it that is benign. Living a secluded life strictly adhering to Christian "rules" is not a fun life for many, and God would not want us to live a boring life. If you're one of the few who can, and find happiness in doing so, then good for you, but don't try and force you're ways upon others. Which then leads me into the "rules". I believe that many "rules" that are preached about are nothing more than forms of social control. A major fault of organized religion is that people in power positions can abuse that power, take the words of God, and twist them to his or her own gain and use them as a form of control. Christianity is not immune to this (Crusades, anyone?). Furthermore, secluding yourself within your beliefs breeds ignorance and intolerance of what is outside your beliefs, which can be just as dangerous as falling into something you shouldn't.

This is why I take what is taught to me with a grain of salt, and do my own study of The Bible.