[milkmandog]

Since this came up the Kenneth Copelands detractors have been accused of taking his statements out of context. So could a Copeland defender explain the errors pointed out in this article and footnoted for accuracy.:
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE FAITH MOVEMENT?
(Part Two):
The Teachings of Kenneth Copeland

by Hank Hanegraaff and Erwin M. de Castro

This article first appeared in the Christian Research Journal, volume 15, number 4 (1993). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

Do not paste entire articles in theology, it is against the rules. just post a link. --Bryan

[doulos777]

Originally Posted by milkmandog

Since this came up the Kenneth Copelands detractors have been accused of taking his statements out of context. So could a Copeland defender explain the errors pointed out in this article and footnoted for accuracy.:
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE FAITH MOVEMENT?

Sorry, I would be on shakey ground if I tried.

[wjarmusch]

Well, I've got to admit a lot of that looks quite condemning. If that's truly what he meant when he said some of that...I question some of his ideas. I'd be interested to read some of the stuff he said and see what he was talking about when he said it. By defending him I'm NOT saying I agree with everything he's ever said. The interesting part, is that in everything I've heard and read...I've never come across ANY of these statements.
I am impressed that there are citations for everything. I'll have to investigate it before I give an answer.

But, I'm not backing down on what I believe as far as the "Faith" message or "Prosperity" teachings. I disagree with this part of the article:

Originally Posted by milkmandog

FATALLY FLAWED

Virtually every error we have noted in Copeland's theology can be attributed to the following four reasons.

First, Copeland seems vehemently opposed to sound reasoning. "Believers are not to be led by logic," he writes. "We are not even to be led by good sense" (emphasis in original).93 Copeland's statement is apparently based on his mistaken belief that the "ministry of Jesus was never governed by logic or reason....He was not led by logic. He was not led by the mind."94 Isaiah 1:18, on the other hand, quotes God as saying, "Come now, let us reason together."

Second, Copeland fails to observe some basic principles of biblical interpretation (including fundamental rules of grammar and usage), at times relying instead on so-called revelation knowledge (information allegedly derived from direct, one-on-one communication with God). His neglect in this area is made embarrassingly apparent by his gross misunderstanding of key words (e.g., faith) and utter disregard of the context in which they appear. The Bible, however, stresses the importance of correctly handling the Word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15).

Third, Copeland does not seem to acknowledge the importance of systematic theology, as indicated by his statement, "I don't preach doctrine, I preach faith."95 Although he may not realize it, his preaching on faith and other topics do in fact constitute doctrines, which combined form his theology (however inconsistent). He would do well to heed the apostle Paul's advice to "watch your life and your doctrine closely" (1 Tim. 4:16).

Fourth, Copeland displays an open attitude of disdain and disrespect for the historically established views of the church. Admittedly, tradition must ultimately be tested by the Word of God. However, it should be recognized that certain historically accepted views, especially as they apply to essential Christian doctrine (e.g., the nature of faith, the nature of God, the nature of man, and the person and work of Jesus Christ), are significant, time-tested summations of fundamental Bible-based truths. To deviate from them is to reject the heart of Christian faith.

As far as #1, I agree to a degree that we're not to be lead by feelings or logic, but the Holy Spirit & the word of God.

#2, if he's had God reveal these things to him, then who am I to disagree with him. The scripture where Jesus says "upon this rock I build my church" talks about 'revelation knowlege' if you go back to the greek. I'm not good enough in greek to tell you how and why off the top of my head.

It definitely makes me want to look into it further though.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

#2, if he's had God reveal these things to him, then who am I to disagree with him. The scripture where Jesus says "upon this rock I build my church" talks about 'revelation knowlege' if you go back to the greek. I'm not good enough in greek to tell you how and why off the top of my head.

It definitely makes me want to look into it further though.

I think the question is whether or not God has truly revealed himself to Copeland or if he just came up with an idea and thought, "oh this must be God talking to me" when it really wasn't.

[bobthecockroach]

In the future, please post a link to the article rather than copying and pasting the article.

[milkmandog]

This link has audi and video clips with each heresy categorized from each wof teacher;
http://www.biblefacts.org/cult/clips.html

[+Donny]

milkmandog, we do have a rule against the posting of articles, and it's mainly to make sure you're doing your own work. Put together your own arguments against this so you aren't making the people on the other side respond to huge articles and a bunch of links.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

But, I'm not backing down on what I believe as far as the "Faith" message or "Prosperity" teachings.

Which is what?

[Ax]

If what I read was correct and not super-biased against him, I'd have to say the man is an idiot... On the logic issue, I think the writer of the article posted a VERY good scripture reference... and also... It would be extremely poor practice to say that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is illogical, humans are illogical, God is logical and has perfect logic...

[wjarmusch]

Originally Posted by AXguitar

If what I read was correct and not super-biased against him, I'd have to say the man is an idiot... On the logic issue, I think the writer of the article posted a VERY good scripture reference... and also... It would be extremely poor practice to say that Jesus or the Holy Spirit is illogical, humans are illogical, God is logical and has perfect logic...

You're right...if this paper is completely correct, he sounds like he's got some major flaws. However, I think it is super-biased. Because personally, I've been listening to him for quite a while, I even went to a weeklong conference to hear him & others preach. I've NEVER heard him say anything nearly as illogical as what is accused in this article. I've never heard him talk about most of the things they accuse him of being wrong on. Maybe something he has preached on...but certianly not an on-going thing from what I can tell.
To prove my point, look at the article's citations and the dates. Nearly ALL of them are in the 80's or early 90's. He's definitely grown as a man of God since then. We all think, believe, and say stupid stuff at one time. Now, if you show me something recent...I'd be more inclined to believe you.

D. R. McConnell, A Different Gospel (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1988), 95. Benny Hinn, Jerry Savelle, and Charles Capps number among those Faith teachers who have been profoundly impacted by Copeland.
Ibid., 135-42.
Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Faith (Fort Worth: KCP Publications, 1989), 10.
Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1982), 8.
Kenneth Copeland, The Laws of Prosperity (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1974), 18-19.
Kenneth Copeland, Freedom from Fear (Fort Worth: KCP Publications, 1983), 11.
Ibid., 12.
Kenneth Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body I (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985, audiotape #01-0601), side 1.
Kenneth Copeland, Authority of the Believer II (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1987, audiotape #01-0302), side 1.
Kenneth Copeland, The Power of the Tongue (Fort Worth: KCP Publications, 1980), 4.
Forces of the Recreated Human Spirit, 15; cf. 14.
Ibid., 17.
The Analytical Greek Lexicon (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1970), 419.
Copeland, Spirit, Soul and Body I, side 1.
Kenneth Copeland ministry letter, 21 July 1977.
Kenneth Copeland, Praise-a-Thon, TBN, 1988. Copeland has, in another instance, stated that God "is not a failure" (Kenneth Copeland, The Troublemaker [Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Publications, n.d.], 23).
Kenneth Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham I (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989, audiotape #01-3001), side 1.
Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham I, side 1.
Kenneth Copeland, Our Covenant with God (Fort Worth: KCP Publications, 1987), 7-8.
Kenneth Copeland, Authority of the Believer IV (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1987, audiotape #01-0304), side 1.
Cf. James M. Kinnebrew, The Charismatic Doctrine of Positive Confession: A Historical, Exegetical, and Theological Critique (doctoral dissertation, Mid-America Baptist Seminary, 1988), 157.
R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke, eds., Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 2 vols. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1981), 1:192.
Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1988), 510; cf. 514.
Copeland, Walking in the Realm of the Miraculous, 74-76. Copeland's understanding of these terms, derived from the Greek word zoe (life), is similar to that of ancient Gnostics. See Rudolf Bultmann, "Zoe in Greek Usage," Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (abridged in one volume), ed. by Geoffrey W. Bromiley (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co./Paternoster Press, 1985), 291.
Ibid., 74.
Ibid., 76.
Ibid., 74.
Copeland, Our Covenant with God, 9.
Kenneth Copeland, The Image of God in You III (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1989, audiotape #01-1403), side 1.
Kenneth Copeland, Inner Image of the Covenant (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985, audiotape #01-4406), side 1.
Kenneth Copeland, God's Covenant with Man II (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985, audiotape #01-4404), side 1.
Ibid.
Ibid.
Copeland, Our Covenant with God, 10.
Ibid., 10-11.
Ibid., 15.
Ibid., 10.
See Elmer A. Martens, God's Design: A Focus on Old Testament Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1981), 72-73. Cf. William Dyrness, Themes in Old Testament Theology (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1979); and George Mendenhall, "Covenant Forms in Israelite Tradition," The Biblical Archaeologist, September 1954, 50-76.
Kenneth Copeland, "The Abrahamic Covenant" (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985, audiotape #01-4405), side 1.
Copeland, God's Covenants with Man II, side 2.
Copeland, The Abrahamic Covenant, side 1.
Kenneth Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1990, audiotape #02-0017), side 1.
Copeland, The Image of God in You III, side 1.
Ibid., side 2.
Copeland, The Power of the Tongue, 9-10.
Ibid.
Copeland, The Abrahamic Covenant, side 2.
Kenneth Copeland, "Take Time to Pray," Believer's Voice of Victory, February 1987, 9.
Kenneth Copeland, "Question & Answer," Believer's Voice of Victory, August 1988, 8.
Ibid.
On Jesus' self-witness, see Robert L. Reymond, Jesus, Divine Messiah (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing, 1990), 44-126.
Copeland, The Force of Faith, 9.
Copeland, The Power of the Tongue, 15.
Copeland, Our Covenant with God, 21.
Kenneth Copeland, What Satan Saw on the Day of Pentecost (Fort Worth: Messages by Kenneth Copeland, n.d., audiotape #BCC-19), side 1.
Kenneth Copeland, The Incarnation (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1985, audiotape #01-0402), side 1.
Copeland, Our Covenant with God, 9.
Kenneth Copeland, "The Price of It All," Believer's Voice of Victory, September 1991, 3.
Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, side 2.
Copeland, The Incarnation, side 2.
Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, side 2.
Copeland, Inner Image of the Covenant, side 1.
Kenneth Copeland, Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1991), 129.
Copeland, "The Price of It All," 3.
Kenneth Copeland, Believer's Voice of Victory (television program), TBN, 21 April 1991.
Copeland, What Happened from the Cross to the Throne, side 2.
Copeland, "The Price of It All," 4-6.
Copeland, The Abrahamic Covenant, side 2.
Kenneth Copeland, Now We Are in Christ Jesus (Fort Worth: KCP Publications, 1980), 23-24.
Ibid., 16-17.
Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Love (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1987, audiotape #02-0028), side 1.
Copeland, The Force of Faith, 13.
Copeland, The Power of the Tongue, 15.
Copeland, The Abrahamic Covenant, side 1.
Copeland, The Troublemaker, 6.
Copeland, Inner Image of the Covenant, side 2.
Ibid.
Ibid.
Ibid.
Ibid.
Ibid.
Ibid.
Kenneth Copeland, Believer's Voice of Victory (television program), TBN, 28 March 1991.
Copeland, Inner Image of the Covenant, side 2.
Copeland, The Force of Faith, 7.
Ibid., 7-8.
Copeland, Following the Faith of Abraham I, side 2.

As you can see, the earliest dated refrence is 1991. This is one of the reasons you should post your own work instead of a bunch of articles. Stuff you find on the internet can be very out-dated.

Which is what?

That I agree with what they teach...sorry topic originated in the other thread.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

As you can see, the earliest dated refrence is 1991. This is one of the reasons you should post your own work instead of a bunch of articles. Stuff you find on the internet can be very out-dated.

Does that make his points suddenly correct? If he was wrong 15 years ago, he's still wrong on those points today.

[milkmandog]

Originally Posted by +Donny

milkmandog, we do have a rule against the posting of articles, and it's mainly to make sure you're doing your own work. Put together your own arguments against this so you aren't making the people on the other side respond to huge articles and a bunch of links.

donny - I must have missed that rule. I looked at the rules before posting it and the rules on the forums tab under theology didn'tlist the rule you spoke of. That said, why would I always reivent the wheel. If someone else has doen the work it would be redundant for me to do it over again. That is why we don't all translate our own versions of the scripture or prove pi over and over again we just accept the work already done for us,
I wouldn't have the time or resources to listen to every sermon preached by just 1 of these preachers to put together the recordings found on these sites

[milkmandog]

Originally Posted by wjarmusch

You're right...if this paper is completely correct, he sounds like he's got some major flaws. However, I think it is super-biased. Because personally, I've been listening to him for quite a while, I even went to a weeklong conference to hear him & others preach. I've NEVER heard him say anything nearly as illogical as what is accused in this article. I've never heard him talk about most of the things they accuse him of being wrong on. Maybe something he has preached on...but certianly not an on-going thing from what I can tell.
To prove my point, look at the article's citations and the dates. Nearly ALL of them are in the 80's or early 90's. He's definitely grown as a man of God since then. We all think, believe, and say stupid stuff at one time. Now, if you show me something recent...I'd be more inclined to believe you.



As you can see, the earliest dated refrence is 1991. This is one of the reasons you should post your own work instead of a bunch of articles. Stuff you find on the internet can be very out-dated.





That I agree with what they teach...sorry topic originated in the other thread.

ok find me something post 1991 recanting these earlier heresies. But I believe yu can find recent sermons with KC repeatingthe born again Jesus heresy and the teaching that faith is a force with substance and that Jesus death doesn't atone for sin

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by milkmandog

donny - I must have missed that rule. I looked at the rules before posting it and the rules on the forums tab under theology didn'tlist the rule you spoke of. That said, why would I always reivent the wheel. If someone else has doen the work it would be redundant for me to do it over again. That is why we don't all translate our own versions of the scripture or prove pi over and over again we just accept the work already done for us,
I wouldn't have the time or resources to listen to every sermon preached by just 1 of these preachers to put together the recordings found on these sites

http://www.christianguitar.org/forum...rules_theology

[milkmandog]

Originally Posted by Bryan

http://www.christianguitar.org/forum...rules_theology

Thanks I missed that in my reading.