[Ax]

Originally Posted by comitatus1

I don't think people who [not you] think we can replace everything made from petroleum [such as gasoline] with something made from grain [such as ethanol] are really thinking things through. Where's the study that shows we can grow enough grain to replace petroleum products in this fashion without driving food costs through the roof? Now we have "plastic" bags made from corn byproducts. Isn't this unnecessary? Don't paper bags already fill the bill?

Chris

Where's the study showing we have enough petroleum to last for our kids and grandkids? We can grow more corn if we need to... we can't make petroleum... Also we're running out of trees and the dyes in the brown bags are terrible for the environment...

Originally Posted by comitatus1

I think they are trying to solve the "people are pigs" issue.

Chris

See below...

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

Which seems like an issue worth solving.

I completely agree...

I work at Wal-Mart... I see people daily waste hundreds almost thousands of bags... I don't care if they're recyclable, if they end up in streets and landfills then what does making them recyclable accomplish? I see some old people double, triple, and quadruple bag stuff... it's ridiculous...

If corn oil works then damn the expense... I know Wal-Mart can afford to use them and any other big chain should be able to afford them... If I understand correctly corn oil plastics are biodegradable meaning if jerks don't recycle them then it wont matter because they'll degrade in a landfill anyways...

[Pre-Ex-Girlfriend]

Dear San Francisco,

Could you please start working on a biodegradable disposable diaper? Maybe you could actually test it this time before making a law about it.

Thank you,
Rachael B.

[JerryLove]

If corn oil works then damn the expense... I know Wal-Mart can afford to use them and any other big chain should be able to afford them

WalMart has a division whose job it is to gointo suppliers and help them offshore manufacture to lower costs. They are under any number of suits for the treatment of employees, they have force lowered the quality of everything from DVD players to plastic boxes (which use a lower-quality and less strong plastic than they were before WalMart intervened)

Walmart is the poster child for corporate irresponsability.

[comitatus1]

Originally Posted by AXguitar

Where's the study showing we have enough petroleum to last for our kids and grandkids? We can grow more corn if we need to... we can't make petroleum... Also we're running out of trees and the dyes in the brown bags are terrible for the environment...

According to http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

U.S. Petroleum Consumption
20,802,000 barrels/day or
873,684,000 Gallons per day

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/pub..._NO_115=137162
1 Bushel of Corn yields 2.8 gallons of ethanol

To replace all oil usage with ethanol from corn means we would have to grow

873,684,000gallons/2.8gallons/bushel=312,030,000 bushels of corn/day

But, ethanol's energy content is 75,700 btu/gallon while gasoline is 114,100

75,700/114,100=2/3 so we actually need
312,030,000 * 3/2 or 468,045,000 bushels of corn/day or

170,836,425,000 bushels/year

US production of corn in 2004:

http://www.corn.org/web/uscprod.htm

11,807,217,000 bushels/year

I hope everyone can see the problem.

Chris

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

WalMart has a division whose job it is to gointo suppliers and help them offshore manufacture to lower costs. They are under any number of suits for the treatment of employees, they have force lowered the quality of everything from DVD players to plastic boxes (which use a lower-quality and less strong plastic than they were before WalMart intervened)

Walmart is the poster child for corporate irresponsability.

as a shareholder I would think they are quite responsible.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by comitatus1

I hope everyone can see the problem.

Mostly, tremendous waste. Ethanol by itself is not the solution to the energy problems of the US. It is, however, a part of the solution.

[JerryLove]

as a shareholder I would think they are quite responsible.

My short rant has been moved to http://www.christianguitar.org/forum...d.php?t=147711

[Ax]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

WalMart has a division whose job it is to gointo suppliers and help them offshore manufacture to lower costs. They are under any number of suits for the treatment of employees, they have force lowered the quality of everything from DVD players to plastic boxes (which use a lower-quality and less strong plastic than they were before WalMart intervened)

Walmart is the poster child for corporate irresponsability.

I said they could afford them, never said they would... I agree with you mostly... I only work there because it was the only place that was hiring in Dalton... the place is a cesspool! As for treatment of employees that has to deal with each specific location... My manager treats us like humans but I know that the Wal-Mart across town has a reputation for illegal business habits (ie making somebody work for 12 hours with no breaks and only a half hour lunch)... If I had to work under those conditions I would sue too...

Also, do you have any imperical data to show that they've been specifically responsible for the lowering of quality of items? I know that Walmart brand DVD players are low quality but from what I can tell, all the other stuff is the same quality as everywhere else, and I doubt one retailer can be responsible for the lowering of quality of every DVD player on the market...

[comitatus1]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

Mostly, tremendous waste.

Well, that is absolutely true. It is going to take a sea-change in thinking on the part of the American public to change this. This is why I don't think banning plastic bags made by one material only to allow plastic bags made from another material is going to do much good. Sure, the bags will break down and that will ameliorate some of the environmental problems that bags pose, but it does nothing to make people confront the fact that they are still engaged in a massive amount of waste.

I like the cloth bag idea the best.

Ethanol by itself is not the solution to the energy problems of the US. It is, however, a part of the solution.

In light of the figures I provided, which show that even if we use all the corn the US produces to make fuel we can only replace approximately 7% of our current crude oil usage, it's only going to happen if we can find an alternative source of material to make the ethanol from.

I don't think we want to get to a point where some people starve so that others can drive their cars.

Chris

[Aquaman]

On ScienceDaily a while back they had an article on the ethanol ambitions Mr. Bush has. The article said if the ethanol relied on corn, it would be something like 130,000 sq. miles of extra crop land. One of the plants the authors suggested would be better was a sub-tropical high sugar perennial grass, Miscanthus. The yield is higher as you can use the whole plant and requires less inputs to the soil, water most importantly.

[Ax]

Originally Posted by Aquaman

On ScienceDaily a while back they had an article on the ethanol ambitions Mr. Bush has. The article said if the ethanol relied on corn, it would be something like 130,000 sq. miles of extra crop land. One of the plants the authors suggested would be better was a sub-tropical high sugar perennial grass, Miscanthus. The yield is higher as you can use the whole plant and requires less inputs to the soil, water most importantly.

If it works... I think biofuel is a great thing, doesn't matter what plant is used...

[shakeybill]

On the subject of plastic vs paper I prefer plastic.

I moved from the Boston suburbs (about 30 miles northwest) into the city itself in 1986 when I graduated college. In the area where I grew up all supermarkets still used paper bags in the mid 80's. When I got into the city plastic bags were everywhere. The reason I believe was that most people walked or took public transit to the supermarkets where I lived and you could carry numerous plastic grocery bags with your hands. try carrying more than two paper bags at once and then try to use your keys to unlock your door...

In any event I like the plastic and only get paper when I have frozen or refrigerated stuff that I need to keep cool for a while till i get home. Also I reuse the plastic bags for my computer room and bathroom trash.

Regards, Bill

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Bryan

this is true, and since I can't put plastic bags in the recycling bin that the city picks up, I put them in the trash bin the city picks up.

Can't you just take them with you the next time you go shopping and put them in the recycling bins provided for you outside of most grocery stores?

[Pre-Ex-Girlfriend]

Originally Posted by shakeybill

On the subject of plastic vs paper I prefer plastic.

I moved from the Boston suburbs (about 30 miles northwest) into the city itself in 1986 when I graduated college. In the area where I grew up all supermarkets still used paper bags in the mid 80's. When I got into the city plastic bags were everywhere. The reason I believe was that most people walked or took public transit to the supermarkets where I lived and you could carry numerous plastic grocery bags with your hands. try carrying more than two paper bags at once and then try to use your keys to unlock your door...

In any event I like the plastic and only get paper when I have frozen or refrigerated stuff that I need to keep cool for a while till i get home. Also I reuse the plastic bags for my computer room and bathroom trash.

Regards, Bill

Where I live, all paper bags (except the little ones) have handles.

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Can't you just take them with you the next time you go shopping and put them in the recycling bins provided for you outside of most grocery stores?

I was wondering the same thing.

[shakeybill]

Originally Posted by Emo_Rachael

Where I live, all paper bags (except the little ones) have handles.

The had no handles in the bad ol days. It took my Ma and myself several trips each to bring in the groceries.

If the moon bats in SF want to pass such an law then the paper bags better have handles because SF is a foot/public transit city like Boston. Product price increases to follow...

Bill