[Gsus_Rawks]

Originally Posted by Qingu

However, you would be offended if the person teaching that religion tried to subtly push it on you and taught it as if it were the literal god-given truth. Wouldn't you?

I'm just saying, they need to be careful how they teach this course.

Yeah. I could see this happening as well. I think that opinions and controversial ideas are too often pushed.

For example, evolution and other theories are subtly pushed on me and taught as if they are god-given truths - and I go to a Christian School. It might me true - I don't see my place to say it is, but I don't see my school's - or any school's - place to force their opinions on me.

This could easily happen in the teaching of Christianity - they just need to make sure that everyone knows there are other beliefs that may also be true.

I say that we present the Bible and let everyone make their own choice of what to believe - as opposed to hiding it and not truly give students the options to make up their minds about what they believe. I don't think it is healthy to present people to just a secular belief OR just a Christian or religious way of thinking.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

Yeah. I could see this happening as well. I think that opinions and controversial ideas are too often pushed.

For example, evolution and other theories are subtly pushed on me and taught as if they are god-given truths - and I go to a Christian School. It might me true - I don't see my place to say it is, but I don't see my school's - or any school's - place to force their opinions on me.

Evolution is not an opinion. It is a scientific fact and it is a public school's responsibility to prepare its students to engage and succeed in the real world.

To wit: 99% of biologists believe in evolution, and you cannot get employment in many scientific fields without some knowledge of the theory. Not teaching it would be crippling the future prospects for the students. This is why people are so pissed at Kansas.

This could easily happen in the teaching of Christianity - they just need to make sure that everyone knows there are other beliefs that may also be true.

I don't think the class should have to teach "alternate religions" in a Bible class, if that's what you mean here.

[Gsus_Rawks]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Evolution is not an opinion. It is a scientific fact and it is a public school's responsibility to prepare its students to engage and succeed in the real world.

To wit: 99% of biologists believe in evolution, and you cannot get employment in many scientific fields without some knowledge of the theory. Not teaching it would be crippling the future prospects for the students. This is why people are so pissed at Kansas.

Students should be required to know it - they shouldn't be required to believe it.
I think too often that Science teachers teach science in such a way that students feel required to believe it instead of making up their minds themselves.

I don't think the class should have to teach "alternate religions" in a Bible class, if that's what you mean here.

I don't mean that. I just mean that people should be taught from more than just one point of view.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

Students should be required to know it - they shouldn't be required to believe it.
I think too often that Science teachers teach science in such a way that students feel required to believe it instead of making up their minds themselves.

I'm not sure how they would test whether or not you believe it.

You could easily go through a math class without believing in Pythagoras' theorem.

I don't mean that. I just mean that people should be taught from more than just one point of view.

I don't agree with this either. There is some controversy among secular Biblical scholarship, but not that much.

I don't think that students should be taught "competing theories" like that Jesus never existed, which is basically on the fringe of secular scholarship (even though my esteemed colleague Jerry believes it). They should be taught what mainstream secular scholarship has to say about the Bible, which tends to be a rather cohesive picture, in my experience.

[meatfinger]

I'm a high school English teacher. I incorporate the Bible into my curriculum in several of my classes. In World Literature, I include it in my unit on Wisdom Literature, placing it next to Taoist sayings, Zen parables, African proberbs, etc. (not framing it as "all of these are true," but looking at them as insight into culture). In mythology we read a good chunk of Genesis (esp. creation story, fall of mankind, and flood story) and compare it to similar stories worldwide.

I think it is an important book to understand, being that we're living in a predominantly Christian nation, and being that Christianity has shaped a good deal of our culture. I think it's also important to bring in other perspectives to give kids a wider understanding of the world. Ethnocentricity is a huge huge problem where I live (and in America overall, I suspect).

[Gsus_Rawks]

Originally Posted by Qingu

I'm not sure how they would test whether or not you believe it.

You could easily go through a math class without believing in Pythagoras' theorem.

I don't really want to argue with you - 'cause you'll win - but I think that too often I am force fed Secular theories in the same way that you don't want Public school students to be force fed Christianity.

I don't agree with this either. There is some controversy among secular Biblical scholarship, but not that much.

I don't think that students should be taught "competing theories" like that Jesus never existed, which is basically on the fringe of secular scholarship (even though my esteemed colleague Jerry believes it). They should be taught what mainstream secular scholarship has to say about the Bible, which tends to be a rather cohesive picture, in my experience.

I see where you are coming from. I could just see Secular teaching distorting what the Bible really says while trying to disprove it. I don't think it is the School's place to prove or disprove anything.

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by Gsus_Rawks

I don't really want to argue with you - 'cause you'll win - but I think that too often I am force fed Secular theories in the same way that you don't want Public school students to be force fed Christianity.



I see where you are coming from. I could just see Secular teaching distorting what the Bible really says while trying to disprove it. I don't think it is the School's place to prove or disprove anything.

I don't think secular teaching has some kind of agenda against Christianity. Most Americans are Christians, so naturally many public school teachers are also Christians, and I don't think they are going to purposefully distort what the Bible says. Besides, students would be reading it for themselves.

[JerryLove]

I do think the Bible is an important piece of historical literature. I do think that Christianity has played an incredibly signifigant role in world history.

Were there no modern Christians, this would be a no-brainer. But there are, and that causes obvious problems of differential bias. It's essentially asking for trouble to attempt to teach a room full of kids with very strongly-held and wildly varying beliefs about the Bibe, not to mention that the same is true for the teachers.

You'll have rabid Christians teaching athiest children, and rabid anti-Christians teaching Christian children, and Muslims teaching both, and both teaching Muslims and non-reformists teaching reformist kids etc.

I'd like to see the Bible, and Quran, and DaoDeChing included in school. They should be treated as literature, and as the foundation for cultures. I don't know how feasable it is at a pre-college level.

[Chrysostom]

Originally Posted by Qingu

I agree, people need to learn about the Bible.

They should not be proselytized to in public schools. That is illegal.

The model should be secular college classes on Biblical literature.

I took a secular college class on Biblical literature that was nothing but proselytization -- as admitted in no uncertain terms by (secular) colleagues of this professor.

It is possible to tone down the provocative language and behavior, yes, but any subject will always be taught from a certain perspective. Most interesting was when I would take two classes from different professors; the structure of the classes would be entirely different, the readings would be mostly different, and the conclusions of the class would differ accordingly. This doesn't mean that the professors did anything wrong, of course; this is unavoidable. You can't avoid "taking a side" if you're going to be a good teacher.

For our particular example, which "Bible" will get taught? Out of all the competing schools in America and England and the Continent, which Bible will get taught? Even if you just have students read through the whole Bible and test them on being able to outline the books chapter-by-chapter, you'll still be structuring their view of the Bible because of the order and format of the assignment. (And that class would be both boring and worthless.) Chances are that half the students will get the Jerry Falwell version and half will get the Jesus Seminar version, neither of which is worth even laughing at.

The "Bible" that has best footing to win in the end is the "Bible" that accords with the viewpoint of the American State. This is ultimately a microcosm of the larger dilemma of American democracy. Our biases toward each other are supposed to be normalized by the "neutrality" of the American State -- but anyone with even half a brain knows that the American State provides nothing like proper "neutrality."

[Chrysostom]

Originally Posted by Reedolo

I don't think secular teaching has some kind of agenda against Christianity. Most Americans are Christians, so naturally many public school teachers are also Christians, and I don't think they are going to purposefully distort what the Bible says. Besides, students would be reading it for themselves.

I'm impressed that you have such faith in private interpretation. =/

(And I don't mean that in a snide way.)

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by Qingu

Interesting, I've never thought about it like that.

I guess I would separate ideologies into measurable and unmeasurable. I don't think sociologists necessarily believe that humanity lacks free will—just that statistically its behavior exhibits certain patterns. You can believe that birds have free will but it would be foolish to get offended by a science class that studies their migration patterns, you know?

On the other hand, philosophy and religion make claims about the world that are not measurable or testable. So I feel that's where the line should, and historically has, been drawn by the courts. You shouldn't be able to preach Aristotelian philosophy (let alone Neitzchean philosphy) as "truth" anymore than you could teach the Bible or Quran as truth.

Edit: HOWEVER. The Bible and the Quran—as well as many philosophers—actually do make many testable claims about the world. Such as "the world was created in six days" and "semen comes from between the ribs and kidney" and "there are four elements, earth, wind water and fire."

And honestly, I'm not sure how a class on philosophy or religion should deal with these claims. The best way, I think, would be to discuss them within their cultural context and explain why the claims seemed convincing at the time.

I'm going to have to go back to the book and find some quotes. Until then, I can't say much more on this.

[aplihx168]

see i actually took a World Religions class my senior year of high school(just last year) and for half of the semester we learned basically what kind of religous beliefs were out there and the basis of those religions....
The other half of the class we did the Bible As History....which was quite interesting being in a public school....but i had a Christian teacher for the class so it kinda helped my witness as well cause it kinda turned into a lets preach the Gospel to these other kids in here...course they didn't know that was the case cause they were not saved but yea...

[JerryLove]

The other half of the class we did the Bible As History....which was quite interesting being in a public school....but i had a Christian teacher for the class so it kinda helped my witness as well cause it kinda turned into a lets preach the Gospel to these other kids in here

And there we see the problem illustrated... teachers attempting to convert the class would be the most extreme example of bias.

[Dr. Worm]

I'm kind of surprised that this is a big deal or a new thing at all. There's been a Bible Lit. course at my old public high school certainly for the last decade or more, and before that I'm not old enough to know. But it was never a big deal. I kind of assumed other high schools did this too. It seems absolutely absurd not to.

[Gsus_Rawks]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

I'd like to see the Bible, and Quran, and DaoDeChing included in school. They should be treated as literature, and as the foundation for cultures. I don't know how feasable it is at a pre-college level.

I don't know that it would be very plausible that we teach the Quran in High schools. I think that American society has put a lot of negative bias on the Muslim faith. I think to often we blame terrorism on them. I don't know that any of my High School friends would take a course on the Quran just because it is not familiar to them - whereas everyone in America knows Christian and is familiar with the presence of Christianity.