[adamwagg]

Originally Posted by Qingu

To tie this back into the original purpose of the thread, I believe this is the core reason for the "rise of atheism." It's not that people are suddenly becoming convinced that religion is nonsense—the reasons for not believing have been floating around for hundreds of years. Rather, I think people are starting to see the moral consequences of having faith in these scriptures. They look at the Muslim world and its unmitigated stone-age barbarism with abject horror and moral outrage, and then they realize that these Muslim societies look almost identical to a society based on the laws and morals of their own "holy book."

Hey everyone. Interesting discussion but getting a long way off topic! Remember that Current Events is not the new Apologetics!

Thanks Qingu for bringing it back on topic.

To respond to this quote, I honestly don't think most people think that much. Many christians who have stopped being christians or children who have rejected the church of their parents probably haven't even read these parts of the bible.

Most people I know who have stopped being christians, its because they wanted to do stuff they weren't supposed to do (i.e. getting drunk, sex etc.) nothing so deep as this. Also people at times stop coming to church for this reason or that for a while and then never come back. Once again not for this reason.

Though you may possibly be correct, most of the people I'm talking about would stop being christians but probaby believe in some higher power or something, rather than becoming athiests.

[Peatrical]

Also people at times stop coming to church for this reason or that for a while and then never come back.

Don't forget how some churches spread hate and fear... That always helps scare people away. And it is this small minority which makes the whole ideal of religion look bad.

[JerryLove]

Most people I know who have stopped being christians, its because they wanted to do stuff they weren't supposed to do (i.e. getting drunk, sex etc.) nothing so deep as this. Also people at times stop coming to church for this reason or that for a while and then never come back. Once again not for this reason.

Really? That's not my expeience or that of people I can think of. Most of thedrunkards are still avowed Christians.

Nor does it jibe with those here on CGR who have temporarily or permentanly left Christianity. As I recall, they almost universally had a crsis of faith, though none over a desire to drink or have sex.

I agree with Q's most recent post. I think that Christianity has survived the enlightenment largely by ignoring a great deaal of what it proports to believe. I think that seeing both what muslim fundamentalists look like, and how they justify themselves, and having seen what a fundamentalist administration in our own country has done. How we preached what was rightious and then actually tried it and it failed miserably, has created a disillusionment.

[adamwagg]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Really? That's not my expeience or that of people I can think of. Most of thedrunkards are still avowed Christians.

Nor does it jibe with those here on CGR who have temporarily or permentanly left Christianity. As I recall, they almost universally had a crsis of faith, though none over a desire to drink or have sex.

Perhaps then its the difference between Australia and the US, or maybe the groups we go around in. Because it is certainly my experience. I do not personally know a single person who left church and became an athiest. (and I know plently of people who used to go to church and stopped - normally for the sort of reasons I stated).

Drink and sex were just examples - they are not necessarily the only things or only reasons by the way.

Edit: Actually I think i met one once. But he told me that he'd never really believed in God anyway. He was just going to church cause that's what his parents and his friends did. I can't quite remember if he was an athiest or a 'higher power' person.

[Qingu]

Originally Posted by adamwagg

Perhaps then its the difference between Australia and the US, or maybe the groups we go around in. Because it is certainly my experience. I do not personally know a single person who left church and became an athiest. (and I know plently of people who used to go to church and stopped - normally for the sort of reasons I stated).

Drink and sex were just examples - they are not necessarily the only things or only reasons by the way.

Edit: Actually I think i met one once. But he told me that he'd never really believed in God anyway. He was just going to church cause that's what his parents and his friends did. I can't quite remember if he was an athiest or a 'higher power' person.

To me, it's not that the church has suddenly become less relevant for these people. Throughout Christian history there have been drunkards and adulterers, and throughout most of Christian history these people have dutifully came to church their entire lives.

What changed? I think it's rather simple: people aren't afraid anymore. The reason these people came to church in the first place is not that they ever rationally believed in the religion, it was that they were afraid. They were bullied into it—quite literally in the middle ages, as refusing to go to church was heresy. Even 50 years ago, going to church was considered a fundamental requirement of society, and people who didn't go were considered abberant, often by the people closest to them. Even today, consider how scorned nonbelievers are—what would your parents say if you told them you didn't believe in Christianity? I am sure many people's parents on CGR would disown them, and this is in 2007.

And then, of course, there was the fear of hellfire and damnation. There's no better way to keep people in your cult than to repeatedly threaten them with eternal torture if they leave—especially if you start doing it at an early age.

Someone said that churches would keep more of their members if they were more welcoming and less hateful. I don't think that's the case at all. In fact, I think the reason why so many Christians are leaving the church when they grow older is precisely because their churches no longer preach hellfire, and their communities and families no longer ostracize and punish unbelievers.

I am quite sure that if apostasy was punished by death, like it was in the middle ages and like it still is today in Islam, you would have far, far less ex-Christians. Like it or not, fear has always been the driving force in keeping people religious. This should surprise no one on this forum: as the Bible says, Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

[adamwagg]

I have split off the recent discussion as per a request from Qingu and moved it to Philosphy where it is a better fit.

Link: http://www.christianguitar.org/forum...d.php?t=147666

As the original discussion died and I see any further discussion continuing down the same path as before I am closing this thread. If you have more to say on the original topic - pm me or start a new thread with the new information. If you have anything more to say on the tangents go to the thread I moved. Thanks!