[Dogar]

just a pitch in for all teenagers (or older peeps) who are considering or have chosen celibacy. Why does the church try to hide it nowadays, is it just not praactical? Even 'the message' bible blanks it out. Living undivided for Jesus!

Why don't more people choose celibacy more often. Why isn't it sold to teens or anyoine for that matter. Are people that interested in sex? Can people build a marriage relationship with Jesus! or the church and brotherhood? Can people devote their time and love to God as they were a spouse.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Dogar

Why don't more people choose celibacy more often. Why isn't it sold to teens or anyoine for that matter. Are people that interested in sex? Can people build a marriage relationship with Jesus! or the church and brotherhood? Can people devote their time and love to God as they were a spouse.

Can people build a marriage relationship with Jesus? NO! I grew up where celibacy was almost too pitched. A lot of people in the college set were totally degrading dating. Simple fact is, according to Genesis, it is not good for man to be alone. I am married, and I will tell you, its been the most rewarding and most work, part of my life.

Celibacy is a valid option for those rare individuals to whom God has called it. However, looking at both Testaments, marriage is the norm.

[Dogar]

Just to come back at you their skipper, the bible talks alot about celibacy. Was Jesus married? NO!!!! He was keeping himself for his church the same way we can keep ourselves with him. I wasn't brought up with Celibacy ideas when i was baptised in the spirit god called me to this way to keep my teens devoted for him and possibly my whole life. You might be married and marriage is great but you can't call one or the other the norm simply because of our social upbringing. Would you dare to live with Zion as your bride. It can be done, spiritual children are the fruit give your time to the church and live undivided for Jesus! Was paul married nor mairy mag nor other of his disciples or the apostles they devotded their time and effort to building the church and making spiritual children!
this is my point.
my two cents.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Dogar

Just to come back at you their skipper, the bible talks alot about celibacy. Was Jesus married? NO!!!! He was keeping himself for his church the same way we can keep ourselves with him. I wasn't brought up with Celibacy ideas when i was baptised in the spirit god called me to this way to keep my teens devoted for him and possibly my whole life. You might be married and marriage is great but you can't call one or the other the norm simply because of our social upbringing. Would you dare to live with Zion as your bride. It can be done, spiritual children are the fruit give your time to the church and live undivided for Jesus! Was paul married nor mairy mag nor other of his disciples or the apostles they devotded their time and effort to building the church and making spiritual children!
this is my point.
my two cents.

Not to be insulting, but you are 14, and I am not basing what is the norm on social upbringing. maybe perchance you should read the scriptures for a change on this one. There is roughly one chapter, partially on celibacy, 1 Corinthians 7. There is not much about it in there. Let me quote where I get that it should be the norm...

1 Corinthians 7:1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.


Also, when God made man, God said...

Genesis 2: 18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

Hence God made marriage to be the norm.

Was Jesus married? No. Did Jesus ever preach to the gentiles? No, occasionally he spoke to a few one on one... Hence, using your logic... We shouldn't preach to Gentiles.

Now be more polite in the future.

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Not to be insulting, but you are 14, and I am not basing what is the norm on social upbringing. maybe perchance you should read the scriptures for a change on this one. There is roughly one chapter, partially on celibacy, 1 Corinthians 7. There is not much about it in there. Let me quote where I get that it should be the norm...

1 Corinthians 7:1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.


Also, when God made man, God said...

Genesis 2: 18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

Hence God made marriage to be the norm.

Was Jesus married? No. Did Jesus ever preach to the gentiles? No, occasionally he spoke to a few one on one... Hence, using your logic... We shouldn't preach to Gentiles.

Now be more polite in the future.

Gen 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."
Gen 2:19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

Just wanted to point out that verse 18 is implying that Man needs animals, not that man needs woman. Eve doens't come until verses 20 and 21.

I think there is much said in 1 Corinthians 7.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote. It is well for a man not to touch a woman.
1Co 7:2 But because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
1Co 7:3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
1Co 7:4 For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does.
1Co 7:5 Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.
1Co 7:6 I say this by way of concession, not of command.
1Co 7:7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
1Co 7:8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.
1Co 7:9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.

First, Paul says that it is well for a man not to touch a woman, i.e. to be celibate. And then later he says that he wish all were as he himself is (celibate), and he says that it is well for unmarried men and women to remain single, but they can and should marry if they cannot exercise self-control.

He also says that he says this by concession, not command (verse 6). He is conceding that men and woman may marry, he is not commanding it. Nowhere it it commanded for men and women to marry, and nowhere does it say that marriage is the norm over celibacy.


1Co 7:32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord;
1Co 7:33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife,
1Co 7:34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.
1Co 7:35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
1Co 7:36 If any one thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry--it is no sin.
1Co 7:37 But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well.
1Co 7:38 So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.
1Co 7:39 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. If the husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
1Co 7:40 But in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I have the Spirit of God.

Paul clearly prefers celibacy over marriage. I wouldn't say that marriage is the "norm". He who marries will do well, and he who refrains from marriage will do better.

I have nothing against marriage at all, I consider it a Sacrament... but I think that too many people in our society today, even Christians, look down on the celibate lifestyle, even though that lifestyle is commended and recommended in the Scriptures. Too many Christians consider a celibate lifestyle "abnormal", and inferior to married life. Such an idea is not found in the Scripture or an the Christian tradition.

Again, marriage is not bad or wrong... but it is wrong to view celibacy as something inferior to marriage or something abnormal. When you say that marriage is the "norm", you are necessarily implying that celibacy is not normal.

[Nomes]

Gen 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."
Gen 2:19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

Just wanted to point out that verse 18 is implying that Man needs animals, not that man needs woman. Eve doens't come until verses 20 and 21.

But notice....

18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23Then the man said,

"This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man."

There is no scripture that says you have to be married, or you have to remain unmarried.
Marriage can be a challenge because your attentions are divided, but we are also all created to desire a mate. And it can be very fulfilling. But so can remaining single. Each person has his own lot, everyone is different. God calls people to different lives.

Regardless of that calling - during ones teenage years, I would very strongly suggest staying single. It's so important to let God work in your heart and teach you with undivided attention while you're going through so many changes. I found it invaluable, while not always easy. And really pressing into God in the time shored up a steadfast foundation in the Lord so that I could be wise when facing life.

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by Nomes

But notice....

18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. 21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23Then the man said,

"This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man."

There is no scripture that says you have to be married, or you have to remain unmarried.
Marriage can be a challenge because your attentions are divided, but we are also all created to desire a mate. And it can be very fulfilling. But so can remaining single. Each person has his own lot, everyone is different. God calls people to different lives.

Regardless of that calling - during ones teenage years, I would very strongly suggest staying single. It's so important to let God work in your heart and teach you with undivided attention while you're going through so many changes. I found it invaluable, while not always easy. And really pressing into God in the time shored up a steadfast foundation in the Lord so that I could be wise when facing life.

I agree 100%

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Reedolo

[COLOR=Blue]Gen 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."
Gen 2:19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

[COLOR=Black]Just wanted to point out that verse 18 is implying that Man needs animals, not that man needs woman. Eve doens't come until verses 20 and 21.

Bad exegesis! You stopped too soon. Verse 20 makes it clear this is talking about man's need of Woman as a counterpart, not animals.

I think there is much said in 1 Corinthians 7.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote. It is well for a man not to touch a woman.
1Co 7:2 But because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
1Co 7:3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
1Co 7:4 For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does.
1Co 7:5 Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control.
1Co 7:6 I say this by way of concession, not of command.
1Co 7:7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
1Co 7:8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.
1Co 7:9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.

First, Paul says that it is well for a man not to touch a woman, i.e. to be celibate. And then later he says that he wish all were as he himself is (celibate), and he says that it is well for unmarried men and women to remain single, but they can and should marry if they cannot exercise self-control.

However, he says in verse 2, that while he thinks that is ideal, that because of the current immorality every man should have his own wife. I think our cultural climate could well be compared to Corinth. As such, it implies that for the vast majority of us, who are tempted toward immorality, we should get married. That is most of us.

He also says that he says this by concession, not command (verse 6). He is conceding that men and woman may marry, he is not commanding it. Nowhere it it commanded for men and women to marry, and nowhere does it say that marriage is the norm over celibacy.

Actually he does, in verse 2. Because of the current immorality, each man should have his own wife according to the text. That implies that it is the norm. It may even be said that celibacy can be a holier calling, but let us be perfectly honest. How many of us struggle with lust in our sex drenched culture? How many of us can remain single without a divided focus? Not many. Praise God for the Paul's, but they are not the norm.

[COLOR=Blue]1Co 7:32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord;
1Co 7:33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife,
1Co 7:34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.
1Co 7:35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.
1Co 7:36 If any one thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry--it is no sin.
1Co 7:37 But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well.
1Co 7:38 So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.
1Co 7:39 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. If the husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
1Co 7:40 But in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I have the Spirit of God.

[COLOR=Black]Paul clearly prefers celibacy over marriage. I wouldn't say that marriage is the "norm". He who marries will do well, and he who refrains from marriage will do better.

I think one can clearly see from looking at verse 2, that marriage is the norm, and celibacy is a special calling, and not the norm. In the schools and churches I have been to, marriage is viewed derogatorily, much as our young poster has viewed it. In fact, from the beginning it is a wonderful thing, and in fact, no human relationship so well pictures Christ's love for the church.

I have nothing against marriage at all, I consider it a Sacrament... but I think that too many people in our society today, even Christians, look down on the celibate lifestyle, even though that lifestyle is commended and recommended in the Scriptures. Too many Christians consider a celibate lifestyle "abnormal", and inferior to married life. Such an idea is not found in the Scripture or an the Christian tradition.

I admit I look down on selfish celibacy. What I mean by that is remaining unmarried so that they can retain an undevoted focus on self. Someone who chooses to remain celibate for the gospel is making a huge choice for the gospel. It is not normal. But it also is a great thing. however, at least where I am, marriage is dissed.

Again, marriage is not bad or wrong... but it is wrong to view celibacy as something inferior to marriage or something abnormal. When you say that marriage is the "norm", you are necessarily implying that celibacy is not normal.

It isn't normal. It is a specific calling of God that is not given to most of us. Most of us struggle with lust. It is a form of being exceptional for the gospel, but, by the same token, marriage is not an inferior thing.

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Bad exegesis! You stopped too soon. Verse 20 makes it clear this is talking about man's need of Woman as a counterpart, not animals.

I think you shouldn't have stopped at verse 18 though, because Woman doesn't come into the picture until verse 20. Verse 18 and 19 are talking about animals specifically.

However, he says in verse 2, that while he thinks that is ideal, that because of the current immorality every man should have his own wife. I think our cultural climate could well be compared to Corinth. As such, it implies that for the vast majority of us, who are tempted toward immorality, we should get married. That is most of us.

And he makes it clear that it is a concession, not a command. Celibacy is ideal, and today celibacy is considered by too many Christians to be abnoraml.

Actually he does, in verse 2. Because of the current immorality, each man should have his own wife according to the text. That implies that it is the norm. It may even be said that celibacy can be a holier calling, but let us be perfectly honest. How many of us struggle with lust in our sex drenched culture? How many of us can remain single without a divided focus? Not many. Praise God for the Paul's, but they are not the norm.

How do you know that Paul wasn't tempted? Being celibate doesn't mean that you aren't tempted with those kinds of feelings, it means that you give up sexual relations for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. I'm sure Paul was tempted just like anyone else.

But yes, some peope have better self-control that others. But, really, if someone has such weak self-control that they cannot keep themselves from having sex, then they have really big problems and might not be a faithful spouse. They need to get themselves under control, whether they plan to be celibate or married.

I think one can clearly see from looking at verse 2, that marriage is the norm, and celibacy is a special calling, and not the norm. In the schools and churches I have been to, marriage is viewed derogatorily, much as our young poster has viewed it. In fact, from the beginning it is a wonderful thing, and in fact, no human relationship so well pictures Christ's love for the church.

Indeed. But in my experience, celibacy is generally viewed derogatorily. Maybe that's because I live in the south, where Catholics are a minority, and people seem to have this very strange idea that marriage = happiness and success, and single = unhappiness and unsuccessful.

I admit I look down on selfish celibacy. What I mean by that is remaining unmarried so that they can retain an undevoted focus on self. Someone who chooses to remain celibate for the gospel is making a huge choice for the gospel. It is not normal. But it also is a great thing. however, at least where I am, marriage is dissed.

Where i am it's just the opposite. Celibacy is greatly frowned upon, whether it's for spiritual purposes or not.

And I see nothing wrong with the first kind of celibacy you mentioned either... remaining single just because you want to be single and don't want a spouse. What's wrong with that? Marriage isn't for everyone. If someone doesn't want to get married, they don't have to. There's no reason to look down upon it.

And I woudln't call it selfish. How is not doing something that you do not want to do and are not required to do being selfish? What good would it do to get married when you don't want to? It seems to me like that would be extremely unfair to the spouse.

It isn't normal. It is a specific calling of God that is not given to most of us. Most of us struggle with lust. It is a form of being exceptional for the gospel, but, by the same token, marriage is not an inferior thing.

The whole point is that neither one of them are inferior.

[bobthecockroach]

This is really more of a theology thread.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Reedolo

I think you shouldn't have stopped at verse 18 though, because Woman doesn't come into the picture until verse 20. Verse 18 and 19 are talking about animals specifically.

They are not! They are talking about woman and how the animals were not a helper fit for him, that it was not good that he be alone. Read the whole passage in context.

How do you know that Paul wasn't tempted? Being celibate doesn't mean that you aren't tempted with those kinds of feelings, it means that you give up sexual relations for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. I'm sure Paul was tempted just like anyone else.

I can be sure he wasn't because of the chapter as a whole. Those who burn with desire are to be married, and those who are tempted in the present immorality.

But yes, some peope have better self-control that others. But, really, if someone has such weak self-control that they cannot keep themselves from having sex, then they have really big problems and might not be a faithful spouse. They need to get themselves under control, whether they plan to be celibate or married.

According to Paul, that is why you get married. Look at verse 36. In Greek it is quite plain that sexual impropriety is in view.

Indeed. But in my experience, celibacy is generally viewed derogatorily. Maybe that's because I live in the south, where Catholics are a minority, and people seem to have this very strange idea that marriage = happiness and success, and single = unhappiness and unsuccessful.

here in southern california, if you are under 35 and are married, its assumed that you have a kid on the way or are a freak.

Where i am it's just the opposite. Celibacy is greatly frowned upon, whether it's for spiritual purposes or not.

Different areas, different problems.

And I see nothing wrong with the first kind of celibacy you mentioned either... remaining single just because you want to be single and don't want a spouse. What's wrong with that? Marriage isn't for everyone. If someone doesn't want to get married, they don't have to. There's no reason to look down upon it.

If you are not seeking after the kingdom of God, or marriage and the kingdom, but are trying to amass treasure on earth... Its not good. I am talking of the people I know who basically are trying to please themselves. Just judging by your earlier part of the post, its not as big a deal where you are.

And I woudln't call it selfish. How is not doing something that you do not want to do and are not required to do being selfish? What good would it do to get married when you don't want to? It seems to me like that would be extremely unfair to the spouse.

I am talking of people who are seeking only their own pleasure. Thats never appropriate. If you choose to remain alone based on seeking pleasure, then its not a good thing.

[Dogar]

"I admit I look down on selfish celibacy. What I mean by that is remaining unmarried so that they can retain an undevoted focus on self. Someone who chooses to remain celibate for the gospel is making a huge choice for the gospel. It is not normal. But it also is a great thing. however, at least where I am, marriage is dissed."
All your points on man not needing to be alone are valied, but are celibates alome? You have the life and joy of brotherhood love! Brotherhood love is what is being lost in todays church, after i found the lord i went to one meeting at my mums church. Quite frankly i burst into tears everyone was hostile exept to the 2 friends they knew only one person welcommed me and that was because his mum told me to, i quite literally ran from the building during the worship and caught the bus into oxford then to cutteslow and joined the rest of my brothers.
Celibacy is a life long choice to devote yourself to the cause of jesus, not a selfish plee of fridgedness!

11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Quite simply its there in the new testament, celibacy. Jesus many of his apostles disciples and followers. Paul, John, Mary... do i need to go on. you have chosen marriage because you were called to by god (or i hope you were). Jesus kept himself for the church and we can keep ourselves for him! its the most amazing lifestyle i can imagine, truely giving every part of youself to the cause.
and by the way what did you mean by "your only 14"?

[Dogar]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Not to be insulting, but you are 14, and I am not basing what is the norm on social upbringing. maybe perchance you should read the scriptures for a change on this one. There is roughly one chapter, partially on celibacy, 1 Corinthians 7. There is not much about it in there. Let me quote where I get that it should be the norm...

Was Jesus married? No. Did Jesus ever preach to the gentiles? No, occasionally he spoke to a few one on one... Hence, using your logic... We shouldn't preach to Gentiles.

Now be more polite in the future.

All over the bible it mentions celibacy matt 9, 1 Corin 7 etc. Also Jesus spoke to all who would listen gentiles were the majority of his teaching... "maybe perchance you should read the scriptures for a change on this one".

[Dogar]

"Indeed. But in my experience, celibacy is generally viewed derogatorily. Maybe that's because I live in the south, where Catholics are a minority, and people seem to have this very strange idea that marriage = happiness and success, and single = unhappiness and unsuccessful. "

i am not catholic by the way.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Dogar

firstly retreave your head, secondly all over the bible it mentions celibacy matt 9, 1 Corin 7 etc. Also Jesus spoke to all who would listen gentiles were the majority of his teaching... "maybe perchance you should read the scriptures for a change on this one".

retrieve my head from where? Normally thats a reference to the butt and quite frankly, I am an administrator on this board and any more talk like this and you will be banned.

Jesus came to Israel. If you were familliar with the ministry of Jesus, according to Matthew 15:24 he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel only. Matthew 9 does not mention celibacy by the way.