[musicianist]

Are we born without sin? this is an argument that we have constantly in our
Bible Study. There are books that say yes we are, and books that say no we arent. Are we born with the will to sin? God gave us a free will, that means that we have a choice. And i think that Jesus said before he died that sin would no longer pass through man. because he was in many ways the 2nd Adam.

[J_freek]

We are born in sin. It is our choice whether or not we continue to live in sin.

[WorshipJesus]

Originally Posted by musicianist

Are we born without sin? this is an argument that we have constantly in our
Bible Study.

Yes, we are born with sin. David said in, I believe, Psalm 139 that in sin his mother conceived him.

There are books that say yes we are, and books that say no we arent. Are we born with the will to sin? God gave us a free will, that means that we have a choice.

Are you talking about books in the Bible or extra-biblical books? Yes, God gave us free will and we've chosen to rebel against him... that is our nature.

And i think that Jesus said before he died that sin would no longer pass through man. because he was in many ways the 2nd Adam.

Could you support a verse? I couldn't find anything anywhere near this.

[musicianist]

unfortunatly i cant find the verse, i thought is was in the bible but i guess not. it must have been thrown around at the study, a misunderstanding. neway, yes i am talking about exta-biblical books. here is one: "Are Men Born Sinners?" by A. T. Overstreet ... i think that you can get the first chapter online like i did. its pretty interesting.

You said that yes God gave us free will, and that we have chosem to rebel against him. So what you are saying is that we have a the CHOICE to be born in sin? that we can choose to take on Adam's sin? or decide that we are not going to take his sin as our own?

[tlj009]

Are we born without sin? this is an argument that we have constantly in our Bible Study. There are books that say yes we are, and books that say no we arent. Are we born with the will to sin? God gave us a free will, that means that we have a choice.

We are born with a sinful nature, but if you are asking if a newborn baby that dies will be judged and condemned to hell then we have a totally different discussion. Maybe you can clarify what you are asking.

And i think that Jesus said before he died that sin would no longer pass through man. because he was in many ways the 2nd Adam.

I think that you are referring to Romans 5 but I could be wrong.

Romans 5[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

[musicianist]

i agree that we are born with a sinful NATURE. but what i am asking is if you believe that we have technically commited sin because we are all still on earth because of Adam. as Romans 5:15 says: if many die because of one offense. (Adam) many can be saved by grace through one man. (Jesus). so what it is saying is that The sin of Adam was passed down through many generations until Jesus, all others after the Crucifiction are no longer held to the sin that Adam committed. the same as v.19. one's disobedience(Adam), made many sinners, ones obedience(Jesus), many were made righteous. does that explain things a bit better?

Let me kno if you need any more clairification.

[Elationist]

Originally Posted by musicianist

i agree that we are born with a sinful NATURE. but what i am asking is if you believe that we have technically commited sin because we are all still on earth because of Adam. as Romans 5:15 says: if many die because of one offense. (Adam) many can be saved by grace through one man. (Jesus). so what it is saying is that The sin of Adam was passed down through many generations until Jesus, all others after the Crucifiction are no longer held to the sin that Adam committed. the same as v.19. one's disobedience(Adam), made many sinners, ones obedience(Jesus), many were made righteous. does that explain things a bit better?

Let me kno if you need any more clairification.

Many here will hold to different views concerning this, but there can really only be on true one. We should debate this topic without dividing over. So let us give it a try.

I would say, yes, we are all born with Adam's sin on our accounts, that which in turn leads us all to die physically and we know that we are all born spiritually dead and must be born again through repentance and faith in Christ Jesus.

Without the quickening of the Spirit, which grants everlasting (eternal) life, all remain dead in their sins. However, concerning the conscientiousness of sin, unless one sins willingly and breaks God's commands, then their sin is not conscientious and I am speaking about little children and those who may not have the function to think clearly yet or at all; I am not speaking to an "age" of accountability, but I am speaking on a level of conscientious accountability.

In other words, born into sin first, yes, but now, born sinning...? Perhaps, that is what comes as we grow into our nature to rebel and sin against God and humanity.

So again, I point us to the word conscientious and then better, I point us to the Cross- where Christ bled and died and then He rose again on the 3rd day.

Those who truly repent [turn from their life of sin and turn to God for forgiveness and justification] and trust the Savior [believe wholeheartedly--all of which are acts of God's work in us] will be blessed (are already blessed) with everlasting and life eternal. It's about repentance and faith! Praise God! To Him be the glory.

conscientious -

Quick definitions (conscientious)

adjective: guided by or in accordance with conscience or sense of right and wrong (Example: "A conscientious decision to speak out about injustice")
adjective: characterized by extreme care and great effort (Example: "Conscientious application to the work at hand")

accountability -

Quick definitions (accountability)
noun: responsibility to someone or for some activity

Welcome Michael, to the Theology Forum!

[Cruelty*free]

Yep everyone is born with sin! Like it or not. Summed it up

[Elationist]

Originally Posted by Cruelty*free

Yep everyone is born with sin! Like it or not. Summed it up

I guess if we said we were not, we would be lying and that would be a sin!

~Mick

[Khristeeanos]

2 Samuel 12:21-23
His servants said to [King David], "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!" He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought 'Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

Jonah 4:10-11
But the LORD said, "..But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left...Should I not be concerned about that great city?

1 Corinthians 14:20
Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

Romans 7:9-11
Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Isaiah 7:15-16 (prophecy concerning Jesus)
He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows to reject the wrong and choose the right...

Deuteronomy 1:39
And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not know yet good from bad--they will enter the land.

Mark 10:14-16
...[Jesus] said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

[musicianist]

hmmm, wow. just curious about those thoughts, i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. and some of you seemed to jump on me when i said that i dont think that we are born with sin. let me make this clear:

You don't respect me, I won't respect you

That includes my views as well, you can disagree with them and argue them all you want, but if you want my respect for yours, you will respect mine. fair enough?

ty again for the welcome Michael

[Elationist]

Originally Posted by musicianist

hmmm, wow. just curious about those thoughts, i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. and some of you seemed to jump on me when i said that i dont think that we are born with sin. let me make this clear:

You don't respect me, I won't respect you

That includes my views as well, you can disagree with them and argue them all you want, but if you want my respect for yours, you will respect mine. fair enough?

ty again for the welcome Michael

Please clarify what you disagree with and for others here, I apologize if they have not respected you. Love them anyways; I believe they mean well and love you too and sometimes we all don't communicate that.

[Lightknight]

Do you have any backing for the view that we are born without sin? I would say that we are absolutely born with a sin nature, though I do believe in an age of accountability which renders the question ultimately pointless. However, I would be open to any evidence you could present for your side of the arguement that we are born righteous without a sin nature. What purpose then, does the fall of Adam have on us other than removal from the Garden?

[Elationist]

...however...who claims to be Jesus, maybe we'll start another thread for this one, but, this "new-ology" basically says:

What De Jesus is doing at more than 300 centers in Central and South America, Cuba and the U.S. is preaching a message of "freedom to indulge" because according to this modern messiah, there is no sin, no devil and no hell to pay.

Gavin said:

However, I would be open to any evidence you could present for your side of the arguement that we are born righteous without a sin nature.

Here is an article if you are not already familiar with this:

His name is Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda; his followers call him everything from apostle to Dad, or simply Jesus Christ Man. De Jesus Miranda himself believes he’s the living incarnation of “Jesus Christ Man,” “the second coming of Christ.”

I do not believe this is at all what Michael is trying to say here. Let's see what he means though by that since Christ, no one is born with a sin nature.

[Lightknight]

There was also a fellow by the name of Pelagius who thought we weren't born with a sin nature...