[Sean]

Originally Posted by WorshipJesus

Yes, we are born with sin. David said in, I believe, Psalm 139 that in sin his mother conceived him.

Psalm 51

[Sean]

Originally Posted by musicianist

And i think that Jesus said before he died that sin would no longer pass through man. because he was in many ways the 2nd Adam.

Right...but we are born children of Adam. Through faith in Christ, we are a new creation. We join with Christ the second Adam. Romans 5 (the passage already being debated) makes it clear we are born of Adam's fallen humanity rather than Christ's perfect humanity.

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by musicianist

i agree that we are born with a sinful NATURE. but what i am asking is if you believe that we have technically commited sin because we are all still on earth because of Adam. as Romans 5:15 says: if many die because of one offense. (Adam) many can be saved by grace through one man. (Jesus). so what it is saying is that The sin of Adam was passed down through many generations until Jesus, all others after the Crucifiction are no longer held to the sin that Adam committed. the same as v.19. one's disobedience(Adam), made many sinners, ones obedience(Jesus), many were made righteous. does that explain things a bit better?

Let me kno if you need any more clairification.

First, so there is no confusion... I do respect your beliefs.

Now... what exactly do you mean when you say that we are born with a sinful "nature" but no real sin? I believe the Bible teaches that we are born in a fallen state. From the very moment of our conception, we are in a state that is separated from God, and we may not have made any choice to commit sin, but we are fallen by default and we have done nothing to merit reconciliation with God.

You seem to think that all people who are born since Christ are automatically born in a state of grace with Him, but that belief isn't found anywhere in Scripture. We are all still born under the sin of Adam, and in order to be born again in Christ we must believe and be baptized.

Look again at the Romans 5 passage, and also look at the following passages at the beginning of Romans 6:

Rom 5:17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.


Now I, being Catholic, believe that this passage is talking about the Sacrament of Baptism. Many non-Catholics would rather interpret this Baptism to be a purely spiritual Baptism that happens at the moment one accepts Christ as their lord and savior.

For the purpose of this thread, it makes no difference... both the Protestants and the Catholics believe that this is an event that happens apart from natural birth. The first time we are born, in our natural birth, we are born into our natural sinful nature. When we are born again, we are born into Christ and it is a supernatural birth instead of a natural birth. This being "born again" is something that happens after our natural birth... the first time we are born we are still under the sin of Adam.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'

So, in order to be saved, we must be born "twice" in a manner of speaking. The first time we are born into a sinful nature, the second time we are born "again" or "anew" into grace in Christ.

Psa 51:3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me.
Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in thy sight, so that thou art justified in thy sentence and blameless in thy judgment.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.


So it's clear that we have the guilt of sin from the moment of our conception. I'm certainly not saying that babies go to Hell, but I am saying that they need a Savior just as much as anyone else. They don't just automatically go to Heaven because they haven't sinned yet. If they go to Heaven, it is only because God chooses to save them by His grace and by the merits of Christ.

If what you are saying is true, and everyone who has been born since Christ has been born under His merits, then what is the purpose of being born again?

Take care

[musicianist]

oh well, i have a new question neway.

as far as respect. i still understand what you are saying, and dont discount what you guys are saying. just the way you communicate it. there are a bunch of sat's and waves between us, so its hard to get the tone of voice across, just try to keep that in mind!

[Reedolo]

Originally Posted by musicianist

oh well, i have a new question neway.

as far as respect. i still understand what you are saying, and dont discount what you guys are saying. just the way you communicate it. there are a bunch of sat's and waves between us, so its hard to get the tone of voice across, just try to keep that in mind!

You confused me. What are you talking about?

[exo]

I say the following only to admonish you in your discussions with us on here. From what I am reading, Michael, I am sensing that you aren't here to learn and debate, but to espouse your own views to all of us. You have made some very bold, non-orthodox claims, and I see others using Scripture and taking the time to back up their points, but I see defensiveness and incoherence from you. I encourage you to come here with a spirit of learning and growing, not merely to dogmatically state your views. If we were all here to do that, we might as well just post a sticky thread with 'My Beliefs' and close the forum.

As for the original question, I think one of the key things in your statement has been overlooked. You state that God gave us free will. While, yes, we of course make choices, is this really free, libertarian will going on or something else? Knowing whether or not we have free libertarian will, makes one lean towards a sin nature or not.

[musicianist]

okay, i am not discounting ANY views, i am just interested in what everyone else here believes. that is all. i may be defensive, but in case you havnt noticed, some people have junped down my throat here. i respect everyone here, all i ask is that you guys respect me as well. i take in everything that has been said, and i evaluate it all. i am not discounting what anyone says. i simply am having an open mind. i am sorry if i have come across that way to anyone.

[exo]

That's great to hear. I know I've learned and grown a lot since frequenting these boards for several years. So, with that, we should get back on topic...