[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I agree. When you said "properly drawn plans", I assumed you meant plans that you as the engineer would draw for the contractor to follow. I have been part of building 4 houses with no more plans than what was drawn on a notepad. It seems strange that my uncle can rewire multi-million dollar machinery with no supervision in the mill, but can't by state law, run the electrical to his barn without drawings, permits, and an inspector. According to state law, I will have to hire a certified electrician to replace my air conditioner.

People kill themselves and others with miswured electrics all the time. Treehouses fall down and kill the kids in them. Hurricanes blow apart poorly built houses and turn them into shrpnel to destroy nearby houses.

You built the houses yourself? What was the windload on the last roof? Where was its greatest structural weakness? What was the water-table under the foundation? What's the burn-through time?

You think you know how to do it right? So does everyone who doesn't. So how do we tell who we should let do it, and who is making a deathtrap for his family and all the families nearby? Guess we should test them and give them certifications if they know what they are doing.

[shakeybill]

Originally Posted by tlj009

A 10X10 storage building is less complicated than a treehouse and it would have to have drawings, permits, and an inspector. I guess the treehouse would too.

Not true. At least not so in the ten states that I am a licensed professional engineer. There is a lower threshold that triggers the whole building permit/inspection process.

Originally Posted by tlj009

I agree. When you said "properly drawn plans", I assumed you meant plans that you as the engineer would draw for the contractor to follow. I have been part of building 4 houses with no more plans than what was drawn on a notepad. It seems strange that my uncle can rewire multi-million dollar machinery with no supervision in the mill, but can't by state law, run the electrical to his barn without drawings, permits, and an inspector. According to state law, I will have to hire a certified electrician to replace my air conditioner.

The reason for that is that internal line voltage wiring of a piece of machinery is not considered electrical work by the NEC. You need a certified mechanical contractor to replace your HVAC unit because of federal refrigerant recovery requirements. If your HVAC unit is simply being replaced like for like then you don't need a licensed electrician and permit/inspection because all you are doing is connecting the existing pigtail to the junction box on the new HVAC unit. I did the same thing with my dishwasher and garbage disposal. Now if you have to run a new circuit for the HVAC unit/dishwasher/disposal, etc that is a different situation.

Regards, Bill

[Bryan]

bottom line is, these laws and ordinances protect the general public at large from idiots who think that just because they have a hammer means they are qualified to build a house. are there some that suffer, yes. does it make it a pain for those who are actually good at construction and want to do work on your own home, yes. but, more good comes from these laws than harm.

[tlj009]

People kill themselves and others with miswured electrics all the time. Treehouses fall down and kill the kids in them. Hurricanes blow apart poorly built houses and turn them into shrpnel to destroy nearby houses.

More homes were destroyed because of flood damage after Katrina than by wind damage. Do you really think that the new laws make a house hurrican proof? As for miswired electrics and treehouses, it really has not been that much of a problem since Katrina is the reason these new laws passed.

You built the houses yourself? What was the windload on the last roof? Where was its greatest structural weakness? What was the water-table under the foundation? What's the burn-through time?

The windload of the roof, I guess I could look it up pretty easy but I won't. It has survived several high wind storms, tornados in the area, and the weakened hurricanes that still carried high winds to North Louisiana. There have been no leaks and no problems in the last 15 years. The finished floor elevation is at least 10 feet above the 100year flood plain (for the most part staying above flood plain is not hard, just make it level with the highway). I have and still do work with contractors that build houses similar to the ones I helped build and they are solid designs.

You think you know how to do it right? So does everyone who doesn't. So how do we tell who we should let do it, and who is making a deathtrap for his family and all the families nearby? Guess we should test them and give them certifications if they know what they are doing.

I fully understand that some people don't know what they are doing, but I do believe that a person needs to be responsible for his own work and not the government. I can see where the risk is for the one household, but I still think that the risk to nearby families is minimum. Remember that in cities and towns, they already have their own ordinances because one house does affect the next, but in rural communities, houses affect others far less.

Not true. At least not so in the ten states that I am a licensed professional engineer. There is a lower threshold that triggers the whole building permit/inspection process.

Well this new law applys to any permanent structure.

The reason for that is that internal line voltage wiring of a piece of machinery is not considered electrical work by the NEC.

I am sure that is true, but machinery in a lumber mill takes a lot more electrical knowledge than simply wiring a house.

You need a certified mechanical contractor to replace your HVAC unit because of federal refrigerant recovery requirements. If your HVAC unit is simply being replaced like for like then you don't need a licensed electrician and permit/inspection because all you are doing is connecting the existing pigtail to the junction box on the new HVAC unit. I did the same thing with my dishwasher and garbage disposal. Now if you have to run a new circuit for the HVAC unit/dishwasher/disposal, etc that is a different situation.

According to the contractors that I have talked too, you need a master electrician on the payroll just to tie back in a new unit to the old lines. But since this is the first year that these new laws come into effect, I am sure that there will be some major changes to them.

bottom line is, these laws and ordinances protect the general public at large from idiots who think that just because they have a hammer means they are qualified to build a house. are there some that suffer, yes. does it make it a pain for those who are actually good at construction and want to do work on your own home, yes. but, more good comes from these laws than harm.

Perhaps. But I think that the new rules need a major overhaul before I will consider them reasonable for the entire state. Every, village, town, and city that I know of in Louisiana already has a set of ordinances in place. Several parishes do. So I suspect that this new law making a statewide standard will do more harm than good.

[JerryLove]

More homes were destroyed because of flood damage after Katrina than by wind damage. Do you really think that the new laws make a house hurrican proof? As for miswired electrics and treehouses, it really has not been that much of a problem since Katrina is the reason these new laws passed.

Straw-man.

The windload of the roof, I guess I could look it up pretty easy but I won't. It has survived several high wind storms, tornados in the area, and the weakened hurricanes that still carried high winds to North Louisiana. There have been no leaks and no problems in the last 15 years. The finished floor elevation is at least 10 feet above the 100year flood plain (for the most part staying above flood plain is not hard, just make it level with the highway). I have and still do work with contractors that build houses similar to the ones I helped build and they are solid designs.

You didn't answer the question because you do not know.

I fully understand that some people don't know what they are doing, but I do believe that a person needs to be responsible for his own work and not the government. I can see where the risk is for the one household, but I still think that the risk to nearby families is minimum. Remember that in cities and towns, they already have their own ordinances because one house does affect the next, but in rural communities, houses affect others far less.

Bad electrics bring down a grid, bad materials create fires that spread (often sparked by bad electrics). Bad building standards make houses that fall down. Bad surface prep makes foundations collapse (you didn't answer my question about water-table. You falsely assumed I was talking about flooding. I presume, therefore, that you are ignorant to the effects of subsurface water on "settling" and sinkholes).

I am sure that is true, but machinery in a lumber mill takes a lot more electrical knowledge than simply wiring a house.

I'll accept that statement from an EE or someone who is both a journeyman+ electrician and mechanical contractor.

According to the contractors that I have talked too, you need a master electrician on the payroll just to tie back in a new unit to the old lines. But since this is the first year that these new laws come into effect, I am sure that there will be some major changes to them.

A master electrician generally needs to sign off, though almost never does the work himself. Most electrician companies have, at best, one master (often, they are contracted with a master somewhere else) and are usually operated by journeymen.

Perhaps. But I think that the new rules need a major overhaul before I will consider them reasonable for the entire state. Every, village, town, and city that I know of in Louisiana already has a set of ordinances in place. Several parishes do. So I suspect that this new law making a statewide standard will do more harm than good.

There ar three possabilities:

1) There's something bad in the standard, and "requiring certification" certainly isn't "bad", and it's all you've complained about. In that case, it needs to be fixed.
2) The standard is good, though redundant. It will have no effect therefore and you are complaining about nothing.
3) The standard is good and not all localities currently have god standards: In that case, this will help fix the problem.

[shakeybill]

Originally Posted by tlj009

Well this new law applys to any permanent structure.

OK, you are refering to the new LA regulation. I am not licensed to practice in LA so am not up on what it entails. If that's what it says then IMO then it's a little too reactionary. Stuff like 'kit sheds' from Home Depot should be exempt.

Originally Posted by tlj009

I am sure that is true, but machinery in a lumber mill takes a lot more electrical knowledge than simply wiring a house.

Nevertheless it remains internal line voltage wiring and is exempt from the permitting/inspection requirements.

Originally Posted by tlj009

According to the contractors that I have talked too, you need a master electrician on the payroll just to tie back in a new unit to the old lines. But since this is the first year that these new laws come into effect, I am sure that there will be some major changes to them.

I just leaned over and asked our electrical engineer about this (lots of gray hair + 40 years experience). Connection of a new appliance or fixture to an existing circuit does not require a licensed electrician. If the new LA law requires this then so be it. There will be a lot of illegal work being done by homeowners.

Originally Posted by tlj009

Perhaps. But I think that the new rules need a major overhaul before I will consider them reasonable for the entire state. Every, village, town, and city that I know of in Louisiana already has a set of ordinances in place. Several parishes do. So I suspect that this new law making a statewide standard will do more harm than good.

In general any law passed in a reactionary manner after a tragedy or disaster is not well thoughtout. In Mass a terrible new gun control law was passed in 1998 after a string of drive by shootings. Within a year it was modifed to a more reasonable level once the state lawmakers got input from people who knew the subject. The same may happen in LA with this proposal.

Regards, Bill

[tlj009]

OK, you are refering to the new LA regulation. I am not licensed to practice in LA so am not up on what it entails. If that's what it says then IMO then it's a little too reactionary. Stuff like 'kit sheds' from Home Depot should be exempt.

I agree.

Nevertheless it remains internal line voltage wiring and is exempt from the permitting/inspection requirements.

No argument here.

I just leaned over and asked our electrical engineer about this (lots of gray hair + 40 years experience). Connection of a new appliance or fixture to an existing circuit does not require a licensed electrician. If the new LA law requires this then so be it. There will be a lot of illegal work being done by homeowners.

There will be a lot of illegal work being done by contractors and homeowners. Because, they have no way of enforcing most of this new law and also because the fines are cheaper than it would cost to follow these new rules.

In general any law passed in a reactionary manner after a tragedy or disaster is not well thoughtout. In Mass a terrible new gun control law was passed in 1998 after a string of drive by shootings. Within a year it was modifed to a more reasonable level once the state lawmakers got input from people who knew the subject. The same may happen in LA with this proposal.

Regards, Bill

You are probably right.

[tlj009]

Straw-man.

You brought it up.

You didn't answer the question because you do not know.

Fine, the building will support a minimum of 25psf windload. And for your information a building in general given a minimum requirement and not an exact number unless it is a very unorthodox design that makes a detailed analysis necessary.

Bad electrics bring down a grid,

I don't really know of an instance when bad electricics in a residential home brought down a grid. Maybe you can give me an example.

bad materials create fires that spread (often sparked by bad electrics).

No doubt, but as I mentioned before this is a much higher risk in a community that already has ordinances in place than rural communities that currently have none.

Bad building standards make houses that fall down.

No doubt, but there is a difference in bad building standards and not following the current standards. Still, if the building does fall down, then it would be the owner's responsibility (assuming he built it himself).

I'll accept that statement from an EE or someone who is both a journeyman+ electrician and mechanical contractor.

Well then go ask them. I don't really care.

A master electrician generally needs to sign off, though almost never does the work himself. Most electrician companies have, at best, one master (often, they are contracted with a master somewhere else) and are usually operated by journeymen.

No doubt about that. I did say "on the payroll" didn't I. If not then I stand corrected.

There ar three possabilities:

1) There's something bad in the standard, and "requiring certification" certainly isn't "bad", and it's all you've complained about. In that case, it needs to be fixed.
2) The standard is good, though redundant. It will have no effect therefore and you are complaining about nothing.
3) The standard is good and not all localities currently have god standards: In that case, this will help fix the problem.

1) No doubt that being "certified" is beneficial. It will result in better made houses. My argument is simply that the cost will make the poor and even the lower middle class unable to build a new home. Also, it will promote a lot of illegal work throughout Louisiana.
2) The standard is redundant for much of the state where it would cause the most good and brand new for the parts of the state where it will cause the most harm.
3) Not all localities have good standards and I am not totally convinced that these these new standards in these localities will do the most good for the residents of these areas.

In my opinion, the question is why was this new law passed and what good does it do? The good, I have had some good answers too, but am not totally convinced that it is better than before this law was passed. The reason it was passed is simple politics. The governor agreed to it to get much of the government aid from Katrina.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by tlj009

You brought it up.

Lie

Fine, the building will support a minimum of 25psf windload. And for your information a building in general given a minimum requirement and not an exact number unless it is a very unorthodox design that makes a detailed analysis necessary.

Which point will give first? I accuse you of simply inventing the number... considering your entirely dishonest posting history on the two thread in thie forum, I'm pretty confident in that assertion.

I don't really know of an instance when bad electricics in a residential home brought down a grid. Maybe you can give me an example.

I had a neighbor about 10 years back who kept killing the local power grid because his generator was misattached and causing the transformer to trip.

Here's an example of the dangers of misrun power:

Standby Generators...if you use a standby generator during power outages, remember that improper generator hookup can create serious problems with safety, and the operation of the generator. It is important that your service have a double-throw switch to isolate the generator from the EMC's power lines. If it is not isolated, voltage from the generator could be back fed onto the EMC's lines where it would endanger the lives of our line technicians. The most common way this could occur is if you directly connect a generator to your electrical panel or to a circuit in your home. - http://www.brmemc.com/RESIDENTIAL/outages/outages.htm

of course, bad excavation can hit underground power lines and cause an outage (do you want a cite?) another problem with ameture construction.

Power outages are most commonly caused by bad weather, trees contacting electric lines or equipment, motor vehicle accidents affecting electric equipment or facilities, equipment failure, or damage done by animals. Also. faulty wiring and equipment within your building can cause a localized power outage. - http://www.tpud.org/customerServices/powerOutage.html

[tlj009]

Lie

You didn't bring up hurricanes destroying homes, miswired houses killing people, and treehouses killing people? Here is what you said that initiated my response.

"People kill themselves and others with miswured electrics all the time. Treehouses fall down and kill the kids in them. Hurricanes blow apart poorly built houses and turn them into shrpnel to destroy nearby houses."

Which point will give first? I accuse you of simply inventing the number... considering your entirely dishonest posting history on the two thread in thie forum, I'm pretty confident in that assertion.

Accuse away I don't really care. The bottom left wall stud on the Northern downstairs way will give first (well looky there I made that up).

As for the wind load I pulled out out of an engineering design of a similiar building to one of them that I helped build. If you don't like it then too bad.

I had a neighbor about 10 years back who kept killing the local power grid because his generator was misattached and causing the transformer to trip.

I haven't heard of someone doing that, but then I don't know too many people with their own standby generator. Smaller portable generators, yes but not a permanent standby generator. I can actually see that happening.

of course, bad excavation can hit underground power lines and cause an outage (do you want a cite?) another problem with ameture construction.

No doubt, but Louisiana One Call has been in effect for a while now.
Quote:

Power outages are most commonly caused by bad weather, trees contacting electric lines or equipment, motor vehicle accidents affecting electric equipment or facilities, equipment failure, or damage done by animals. Also. faulty wiring and equipment within your building can cause a localized power outage. - http://www.tpud.org/customerServices/powerOutage.html

I agreed with you that the generator could possibly cause a power outage. I don't know how it would happen if you didn't have another power source, but I am thinking the the generator would have to have been hooked up before the meter because most meters are one-way (assuming I remember correctly) and would not allow current to go back into the distribution line. Anyway it doesn't really matter. I doubt think miswired houses affecting other people's property is common.

[Lightknight]

I agree with most everything Jerry says here. And yeah, Florida has had these regulations for a long, long time and I don't see how it has hurt any of us. Louisiana needs to quit whining if they are doing so about this law.