[Chris]

Originally Posted by Paolo

stick to your silly parody bands and gimmicks. The Gospel doesn't need music to reach out to people.

Then why does it matter if the song is a bunch of parodies or not? Why are you even in music ministry if you think this is true?

So because the Salvation army did it makes it right?

Not precisely what I'm saying, but more the principle behind why do we have to quarantine off everything that a non-Christian even remotely had anything to do with? It was an effective tool for the salvation army to use to get people to pay attention to the gospel message.

Why should christians rip ''all the good songs''? It's belittling. It says christian musicianship is found wanting, and we need the next worldly single to make the latest parody christian single and ''get even'' with the world.

No, you assume this is what they are saying. It's actually saying nothing about Christian musicianship. It's saying I enjoy this melody or this riff and I think it could be used effectively as a worship tool or to minister to others.

Well, first of all, to make a parody, you need to listen to the original song quite a couple of times to get the music right. In that process, aren't you exposing yourself to lyrics that aren't edifying?

Phi 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.


Second of all, to graft the ''godly'' lyrics, you need to know the rhythm of the original lyrics, which means you have to sing them a couple of times to replace the words, and the Bible says you shouldn't even be thinking about those things!

If I may, I will give rebuttal with scripture of my own.

Mark 7
17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

This translates to music as well. It's not the music we listen to that makes us unclean. It's the music that comes from us. If someone is singing about any kind of crude subject, then yes, I'd say that is wrong. But the one arranging the new lyrics does not have to sing the originals. They can write new words as they listen to the song, and try singing the new ones to ensure they fit. And music is just music. It has no message on it's own. It cannot be unclean and therefore by Christ's definition of what makes a man unclean, music is clean. It's the lyrics that contain the entire message of the song.

Now how about the rest of my post? If you hold to these ideas on music, why not on food, clothes, cars, housing and any other form of consumer goods or services.

[Simo]

Amazing Grace... I'll bet you sing that in your church. Thta was set to the tune of a popular pub song.

[steggz]

This thread is really intriguing.... As someone who listens to a lot of 'secular' music, I also choose which songs i Listen to, eg i like some AC/DC songs, BUT I can't ever bring myself to listen to 'Highway to Hell'. Their musicianship isn't what causes me to have a question of conscience, it's the lyrics. I have a lot of time for Aplogetix, their ability to write lyircs is really good, and it's both Biblical and humourous,the former being more important.
NOW BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POINT, I don't see any problems with using 'worldly' tunes, for example 'What Child is this?' is done to the tune of 'Greensleeves'. I would say that you could make better choices, but Paolo seems to make that point at the start. I think it's important to remember that God calls us to be in the world, but not of it. How can you be in it without having a knowledge of it? I'm not saying you must listen to lots of worldly music, but you need to know something of what is happening.

[ICTHUS]

Sorry, I meant to say that Luther wrote A Mighty Fortress (Ein Feste Burg Ist Unser Gott)to a pub tune.

And, Paolo, you are wrong. What you are espousing is, pure and simple, Pharisaic legalism. You are seeking to bind men's consciences where God has made them free, and that is something no Christian should sit back and tolerate.

Others here are doing an excellent job of showing you why.

[Tony]

Quick point of reference: Here is an interesting article that discusses the issue of bar tunes as hymns. Food for thought.

Edit: Here's another one by the same dude.

[Paolo]

http://www.christianguitar.org/forum...ad.php?t=23353

not bad opinions. Pretty interesting thoughts indeed. That R2D2 fella makes a good point.

This translates to music as well. It's not the music we listen to that makes us unclean. It's the music that comes from us. If someone is singing about any kind of crude subject, then yes, I'd say that is wrong. But the one arranging the new lyrics does not have to sing the originals. They can write new words as they listen to the song, and try singing the new ones to ensure they fit. And music is just music. It has no message on it's own. It cannot be unclean and therefore by Christ's definition of what makes a man unclean, music is clean. It's the lyrics that contain the entire message of the song.

It's true, it's not what enters, but what if all you surround yourself with is wordly stuff? Can you eat onions and expect to have good breath ? Can you honestly completely forget the lyrics of an unedifying song you have heard a gazillion times just by changing the lyrics? We need to strive for holiness in all the aspects of our life, and I think the music we listen to is a vital part of who we are.

I agree to some extent. Music is not inherently evil. I never said music itself is evil, but the lyrics give the song it's purpose. Rearranging the lyrics however, is and absurd way of doing things. Being a christian Weird Al Yankovich doesn't cut it for me. I don't feel confortable playing a song by secular artists, that's all. Sure, refusing to play those songs at church turned me into a laughingstock, but I don't care. I am trying to make the Bible a part of my everyday life, holding on to what it says, hoping to fulfill it to my fullest extent, and if the Bible says I shouldn't be thinking about things that are not just,honorable,pure, loevely commendable, excellent, worthy of praise (Phil.4:8) then I shouldn't play them.

Ask yourself this: The church is going to play a song by Christina Aguilera.
Is she or her works just?honorable?PURE? I'd say ''no'' to all of the above. That means I shouldn't even be considering playing her music just beacause it's appealing to the ear.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Paolo

It's true, it's not what enters, but what if all you surround yourself with is wordly stuff? Can you eat onions and expect to have good breath ? Can you honestly completely forget the lyrics of an unedifying song you have heard a gazillion times just by changing the lyrics? We need to strive for holiness in all the aspects of our life, and I think the music we listen to is a vital part of who we are.

This is a strawman arguement. Who said that just because you are rewriting lyrics for a song that you only surround yourself with worldly things? Also, onions may make one less attractive to the world, but then so does embracing the gospel, right? And both do good things for you on the inside.

I agree to some extent. Music is not inherently evil. I never said music itself is evil, but the lyrics give the song it's purpose. Rearranging the lyrics however, is and absurd way of doing things. Being a christian Weird Al Yankovich doesn't cut it for me. I don't feel confortable playing a song by secular artists, that's all. Sure, refusing to play those songs at church turned me into a laughingstock, but I don't care. I am trying to make the Bible a part of my everyday life, holding on to what it says, hoping to fulfill it to my fullest extent, and if the Bible says I shouldn't be thinking about things that are not just,honorable,pure, loevely commendable, excellent, worthy of praise (Phil.4:8) then I shouldn't play them.

If it's the lyrics that give the song its purpose, then what are we arguing about? You're taking a song that may not have a Godly purpose and giving it one. If you feel uncomfortable in this, then by all means don't play the songs. It would be sinful for you to play them if you could not do so in good faith. However, any song that is made to glorify God and holds true to Him and His teachings is all of these things you outline.

Ask yourself this: The church is going to play a song by Christina Aguilera.
Is she or her works just?honorable?PURE? I'd say ''no'' to all of the above. That means I shouldn't even be considering playing her music just beacause it's appealing to the ear.

However, with the new words, this is no longer a work of Christina Aguilera. Especially as she doesn't write the music herself to my memory. Again, what is going on is something is being taken back for God. And just because you are uncomfortable with it does not make it objectively wrong. You can't see the good in it, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

[steggz]

Paolo, i hope you don't feel like its the world against you. If it was me in your position, i would choose not to play them either in church, but then again, that's because i think there are better options. BUT, you have to give them credit for trying to make something out of these worldly tunes. In times gone by, the songs we now see as great hymns of old were controversial. The ones that were done to worldly tunes then would have been viewed in the same way by people back then. Now we shouldnt make a brother stumble into a sin of conscience by what we do, so if you dont think its right to play them, DONT! But i do ask you that you think about whether there is a real problem. Most of us dont, but we cant force you to see it our way. If you make something have the purpose of glorifying God, i think it is good. Hope this helps you out mate, as a brother in Christ, it is my desire that this discussion is an edifying one.

[Paolo]

This is a strawman arguement.

What's a strawman argument?

If you feel uncomfortable in this, then by all means don't play the songs. It would be sinful for you to play them if you could not do so in good faith.

Thank you. I think likewise, and that's what some of my leaders told me when I asked them about it. What we're doing at church might be good, in fact, many people who don't know about the origin of the song or the backgorund of the artist, or simply don't care, have expressed the positive impact these songs have had in their lives, that should be evidence of something good I guess.

And just because you are uncomfortable with it does not make it objectively wrong. You can't see the good in it, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

That is also true. Many times I have been proven wrong in many other things (like now, for example,at least to some degree) but I think it's better that way, because

Pro 11:14 In the absence of wise counsels the people fall, but safety is in abundance of counselors.

So I like to hear what others think, even though I may sometimes lose my cool with some of the posts I read (I'm sorry if I have expressed anger on some of my own posts) in the end it all comes to edifying each other instead of senseless arguing.

___ 3:9 But keep back from foolish questionings and genealogies and arguments and quarrels of law, for they are unprofitable and vain.

I need to keep this verse in mind more often.

BUT, you have to give them credit for trying to make something out of these worldly tunes.

I guess so, I can't really say their labor has been fruitless, clearly it hasn't.

Now we shouldnt make a brother stumble into a sin of conscience by what we do, so if you dont think its right to play them, DONT! But i do ask you that you think about whether there is a real problem.

Yes, there might not be a real problem after all, besides me, that is. I tend to have a problem with everything, so please be patient with me!


Thank you all for taking your time to read my posts and comment on the topic!

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Paolo

Yes, there might not be a real problem after all, besides me, that is. I tend to have a problem with everything, so please be patient with me!

We're all pretty much moody musicians here, so you're among friends at CGR...

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Paolo

What's a strawman argument?

It's an arguement full of faulty logic that you hack away at in an attempt to discredit what the other person actually said. I felt your arguement about listening to secular music being the same as surrounding yourself with worldly things to be based on faulty premises.

I tend to have a problem with everything, so please be patient with me!

What Tony said. (^_^)

[Paolo]

BTW, I wasn't all that serious about the onions, just shooting from the hip. I like to make a lot of questions, as senseless as they may be sometimes.